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#1 | |
Dead Serious
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The problem with your theory is that you take Aranarth's birthdate from the HoME, which isn't a 100% canonical source. So it might well be that Tolkien ended up displacing this birthdate... I doubt if he would have had the Chieftain of the Dunedain as an illegitimate son, although I can hardly say that it is impossible. I'm also doubting that if Aranarth was born in 1938, that it was as Firiel's son. I don't see Arvedui leaving the kingdom that, as Crown Prince, he is a main defender of. Which leads to my alternative theory... Firiel was Arvedui's second wife. His first, the mother of Aranarth, had died before; quite possibly in childbirth. Interestingly, this little speculation could help to explain why Pelendur and the Lords of Gondor rejected the Arvedui-Firiel claim: it was based on FIRIEL's lineage, which would not be inherited by Aranarth. It could also explain why Aragorn, when making his claim and stating his lineage, declares himself the Heir of Elendil and Isildur, and makes no mention of Anarion. Of course, I could be reading a lot more into this than necessary. However, I think I have successfully shown that Heren's presentation is far from solid.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#2 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
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All right, Sir: Quote:
Same from the Gondor side of things: Quote:
P.S. Third party may lawfully knock holes in both theories, indicating the whole story as mere typo on Tolkien's part. But I prefer to dream romance behind it, masked Arvedui climbing the walls and swimming over Anduin to (not to lose sight of the title) kiss his beloved, that kind of thing. And little Aranarth being as much a cause for the wedding as political necessity may have been. Things tend to be hushed up in higher up circles, yer honour. Having in mind marriage customs, though, every union is automatically 'in wedlock', so 1940 T.A. may be viewed as the year of 'official rituals', confirming the fact. cheers
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#3 | |||
Dead Serious
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#4 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
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Aw!
I want to stick up for Heren Istarion's story. It's such lovely fanfiction! So I'll point out that it's standard in literature, and chivalric tradition, and much of the history of sexual interaction, for men to be lovers at a stage in their career before they become fighters.
I have Tolkien on my side, in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen". I have historical logic on my side. Before men risked and often lost their lives, they wanted to imprint their genes on the world. Hence breeding sprees before and during the First World War. And-most incontrovertibly-Shakespeare, who saw into minds and hearts, backs me up. Jaques in "As You Like It", in his Seven Ages of Man speech, lists -Baby ("mewling and puking") -Schoolboy ("creeping like a snail unwillingly to school") -Lover (can't recall how he's described at all...) -Soldier ("full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard") For all these reasons, I declare that I envisage Arvedui being educated in courtly ways at Gondor, falling in love with Firiel and only after his passion is consummated and a child secretly born being summoned back to Arnor for war. Tearful farewell. Discovery of Aranarth. Negotiations. Arvedui summoned back to Gondor for a more-than-shotgun marriage. Furthermore, I'd like to see someone write this...
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Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
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#5 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Plus, in regards to going off to war, it's a great line for guys to use..."we may never be together again." |
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#6 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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another speculation. Feel free to fan-fic
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![]() Thing being, I acknowledge (and did acknowledge in my previous) high probability of the dates being merely mixed up, after all. It just would not do to contradict myself in matters of chastity of the royal houses of Westernesse too. That's why I said I dreamt romance behind the dates, not stated it. Probability of Arvedui serving in Gondor in disguise, however, is not that negligible. After all, Aragorn, who was a single governing body of a hundred or so Rangers, spent years there. Presumably, he would have been more needed North than Arvedui, who was free unless his father died, and even than would have had a whole officialdom at his disposal to rule when he was away, say, swimming across Anduin and stuff. Besides, Aragorn (Thorongil) probably (apart from his Sauron-defying activities, Denethor was not that blind, after all) was 'studying the field' - i.e. preparing himself for probable take over of the throne. Arvedui may have been in Gondor with the same issue in mind. Don't take it that long, I do not imply he was planning coup d'etat, but the Northern line always considered itself superior, Anarion's blooldline added or not. Cf: Quote:
The post being mostly speculative, but nevertheless plausible, I reckon. P.S. I have a feeling we have lost something along the way. Lemme see... um... mmm... Ah! Arwen! It was about love, and we are already knee-deep in politics. The way of life I reckon. You start out full of love, long curls and bright t-shirts, and end up an organization man with no hair at all and an austere tie. Poot.
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#7 | |
Dead Serious
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The primary reason, right there, that I do not find Heren's theory totally convincing. You DON'T have Tolkien on your side. Whatever PJ may have intended in the movies, I think it should be clear that TOLKIEN, in his own mind if never explicitly stated in the books, saw Aragorn and Arwen as waiting for marriage. Now, this doesn't necessarily affect Arvedui's story. After all, just because Aragorn is noble doesn't mean his great-manys-grandfather was. However, Tolkien (the man, if not necessarily the book) is NOT on your side. As for your suggestion that Aragorn was more needed in Arnor than Arvedui had been, I doubt it. The Dunedain of the North had been led by somebody other than Aragorn during all the long years that he was growing up in Rivendell. Furthermore, Arvedui was a prince (and if he was in a Boromir-like situation as I imagine, then he was also a major captain as well) at a time when Angmar was a very dangerous threat to Arthedain's survival. Whereas in Aragorn's day, the danger was to Gondor, from Mordor. Plainly not the same. Resting my case for the moment, Formendacil
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#8 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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from the eyes of a hopeless [young] romantic
The Book:
I never in my wildest dreams imagined that Aragorn and Arwen had anything going on apart from stolen kisses and handholding. Tolkien was too much of a prude (by today's standards, of course ![]() Aragorn and Arwen were very much the proper noble couple. Sure they loved each other with all the depths of the deepest oceans and all that poetic nonsense, but Arwen loved her father also, and respected him. If Elrond said that they couldn't get married until Aragorn proved himself, then the two would understand that the physical aspect of their romance was on hiatus until the world was a safer place. Honestly, that makes it so much more important for the good guys to win, because then our hero (Aragorn) gets his heart's desire (Arwen), and you know that the entire romance was pure, noble, honorable, loving, and above all, deserved. Never went through my head that they might have been engaging in hanky panky in some private cluster of trees somewhere. That's just so... common. It takes away from the idea that they are above us, and truly noble. There is, of course, noble in birth, and noble in deed. These two are supposed to be both. ---------------------- The Movie: A translucent silk nightie? Very pretty, very delicate, and above all, very revealing. I never would have put an Elf in something like that. I'd put a woman who's been married a grand total of three weeks to the man of her dreams in something like that. When I first saw the dream scene, I think I looked something like this: ![]() But then it ran through my head that this was Aragorn's dream. Subconscious thought. Of course he's going to be dreaming that he's with his true love, in a place with no danger, where they can simply be together. But at the same time, I was still shocked by the whole kissing-while-prone thing. Reminds me of the talks that I and seven other teenage girls have at the lunch table (actually, I'm usually concentrating on eating quickly so I can get back to whatever project I'm working on, but that's another story). You know the "...and then his mother walked in!" type stories. It's so... not... tragic. Yes, she's telling him not to give up hope. Yes, he's feeling hopeless and his true love encourages him. But did they really have to make out to get the point across? I suppose that they wanted to show the audience that even though he kept giving Eowyn meaningful looks (and yes, tp, I agree with you about those), that his heart and thoughts belonged to Arwen. But really... an almost see-through night gown while he's comfortably lying in her personal chambers? If Galadriel had seen that thought I bet Aragorn would have blushed.
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peace
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#9 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
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Quite, Fea! "No Elessar for you, naughty boy..."
Formendacil, all I mean by quoting the Tale is that Aragorn fell in love with Arwen before he departed for Gondor to become a soldier-reinforcing the love first, war later, point. Also, Gondor was quite as threatened by the Wainriders as Arthedain was by Angmar. The only difference was that Earnil was a great general and Arvedui an indifferent one (not to mention possessing a really depressing, morale lowering name...)
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Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
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