If they still had Gandalf...

[mormegil]

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

Would agree. One of the problems with 'if' scenarios is that at what point do you start a completely new story? I've continually in my own rewriting (mental) tried to 'get back' to the original storyline as much as possible.

Like if we couldn't brainstorm a way to get Theoden healed, then I could write, "Then Alatar and Pallando, on a trip back from the East, stop off at Meduseld and break Saruman's hold on Theoden, just to torque Curunir off. They then went back into the East..."

It's like cheating.

[Essex]

All this goes to show how TIGHT and well worked the plot of LOTR is.

Alter one little thing, and the story is irrevocably Changed. in some cases first hand, and in others like dominoes.

e.g.

first hand

Frodo leaves an hour later from Bag End. - captured by wraith - end of story

dominoes

Hobbit's don't fall asleep on the downs - no barrow wight - no sword for merry - no defeat of witch king - frodo and sam then captured by orc hunters - end of story

first hand

Nob not going to loo for Merry outside the Pony - Merry probably killed by ringwraiths (this also has further domino effects, of course)

dominoes

gandalf doesn't tell radagast to speak to birds and animals re news - no gwaihir to isengard - no escape - no battle between gandalf and ring wraiths on weathertop and drawing off of 4 ringwraiths - probable defeat of aragorn and frodo and Ring captured - end of story


PS Alatar - cheers, been spending what time I have online recently on the Gallifrey Online Doctor Who forums. Yes, even MORE 'nerdy' than Lord of the Rings!!!!

[Glirdan]

I think what we would need to think about first would be these questions: What if the Balrog and the Goblins of Moria did come after the fellowship? What would happen? Would Lorien be burned? Would Gandalf die anyway? What would happen to the rest of the Fellowship? and What would happen to Galadriel and Celeborn?

These are all questions that I have been thinking about constantly and I can't really think of any solutions for them, besides the first question. The solution to that would be that the Balrog and Goblins DON'T follow them out of Moria, which should be an obvious solution.

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate any input on your answers for these questions.

Glirdy

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I think what we would need to think about first would be these questions: What if the Balrog and the Goblins of Moria did come after the fellowship

My big question is how the Balrog would get out in the first place - if I were a Dwarf, I would make entrances (or at least some of them) dwarf height so that those taller than men would have some discomfort entering...just how big are their doorways in that Smaug can run around at will?

Well, anyway, the goblins would have been put off by the light somewhat. The Balrog could have pursued the Fellowship, but then again, it may have been happy just driving them out of Moria.

Gandalf could have sealed the entrance of Moria against pursuit, and the strain of the same could have 'killed' him. He gets buried in the rubble and after some brief mourning, the Fellowship-1 goes to Lothlorien. Gandalf then could be unburied by the 'moles of Manwe' and thereby become Gandalf the White.

Would Lorien be burned?

Surely if Galadriel could withstand the might of Mordor, she and her people could withstand a bunch of orcs and a Balrog.

Would Gandalf die anyway?

Gandalf has to die; the story just isn't as interesting with him aiding Frodo's decision. Plus, when you initially read the story, you start really thinking as a major character dies - where's TTT?!? Does Gandalf survive the fall? What a 'cliffhanger!'

What would happen to the rest of the Fellowship?

Same as before, unless we would want to start a new story...you could have the Balrog pursue the Fellowship out of Moria towards Lothlorien, and Boromir could start imploring Frodo to use the Ring on the Balrog. Frodo of course would not do so, and the strife seen at Parth Galen could show itself here. The Balrog and orcs, finally catching up with the Fellowship, attack and in the disorder Sam and Frodo could become separated from the other members of the Fellowship. This could be Gandalf's plan - to allow Frodo to escape - while he and the others take on the enemy. The Galadhrim could show up unexpectedly and aid the good guys - even helping Sam and Frodo into boats? Again I would have Gandalf sell himself by taking on the Balrog. Both could drown in a river or something. Gandalf would be rescued by the 'fishes of Ulmo.'

and What would happen to Galadriel and Celeborn?

Surely nothing that would get them overly excited, as when you're as old as these two, you've seen just about everything twice.

[Glirdan]

Has anybody else thought of this question??? What do you think would have happened if Gandalf wasn't held captive by Saruman?

In my opinion, Gandalf would have made it back to Bag-End before Frodo and Co. left for Crickhollow and probably would have left as soon as he reached Bag-End seeing as he knew the Nine Riders were out and abroad. Therefor, they would probably have not left through the Dark Forest, never met Tom Bombadill (who was, sadly, left out of the movies) reached Bree earlier and possibly not have met Aragorn until later and by the time they reached Weathertop, they would not have ran into the Black Riders and Fordo would not have his shoulder wound. Then they would have reached Rivendell without any problems and this is where it gets tricky. Would they have left Rivendell before Boromir or Legolas or Gimli and Gloin or any of the others who were part of the Council of Elrond arrived???? I would really like to hear others opinion on this because this question has been burning in my mind since I reread the FotR.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Has anybody else thought of this question??? What do you think would have happened if Gandalf wasn't held captive by Saruman?

Problem with that senario is that Gandalf would never known to think Saruman was a traitor which would have horrible implications that could only be left to complete speculation.