Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

With regard to the scenes mentioned earlier. On the bridge we see them alone together for the first time. It is highly romantic, the two pairs of hands clasped, he strong and she demure. A clear image of courtly love, especially when accompanied by the lilting theme music.
In the later scene, Arwen's negligee type gown and Aragorn's open necked tunic, with his bootless feet on the couch/bed, seemed to suggest to me that it was 'afterwards'. It is a very peaceful scene and Arwen's speech and body language towards Aragorn are very tender and 'wife-like'. I thought that it was beautiful and showed that the two characters were very comfortable and at ease with one another. It was a refreshing change to see lovers portrayed in that way, without the usual gymnastics that seem to count as romance in films these days!

Part of my original question was 'is even the suggestion of a non-consumated relationship fitting for a fantasy movie involving high romance?'

I would agree with your assessment of the scenes; however, being married more than just a few years, I would not consider my and my wife's life together to be considered fantasy romance. Don't people prefer to see something fantastic, whether it be 'gymnastics' between two buff bods or tear-extracting romance where the couple just have the most perfect conversations, words on their lips, meaningful looks, and remember every anniversary with a unique and well-thought out gift (hand-made, of course)?

[Lush]

Lush, I have to say I couldn't disagree more with you more on the books - there is so much textual evidence (in LOTR let alone in HoME and UT) and I think the love story loses its whole point is they were " de facto". However I have to get back to work so Iwon't go over all of it again.

That's cool. I'm mostly basing it on the relationship between Beren & Luthien, since I'm pretty much convinced that they did it right away. Not that it matters.

[Anguirel]

I'm with Lush on Beren and Luthien. I found the "slain by bliss and grief" passage rather more than you'd expect even from embracing the most beautiful thing in existence. Also it explains Luthien's later tenacity when Beren continually sets off without her. They are married already, in Elven terms.

Aragorn and Arwen, on the other hand...it could easily have happened in Lothlorien, when that mischievious match-maker Galadriel dolled Aragorn up. But in Aragorn's case, I doubt it somehow. Beren was under no promise to Thingol when he first met Luthien, and after his vow they always considered the option of running away and living in the wilderness together, as befits husband and wife. But Aragorn wouldn't break his promise to Elrond, or force Arwen to mortality prematurely; he'd wait till he was King of Gondor and Arnor.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think your interpretation is more possible with the films because they don't go into the backstory so much and their scenes are much more open - however I still think it unlikely - epecially since Arwen sets out for the havens before the end.

Mithalwen makes a good point. In the films we see Arwen heading for the boat to Valinor, after the scene where they have supposedly slept together. Now if we take Tolkien's statements about Elves to be what we should base our assumptions on, then if they had slept together, Arwen would be Aragorn's wife and hence a mortal, so she would not be allowed to leave for Valinor.

The act of marriage for an Elf is to sleep with their partner. Once that is done then they are married for eternity. I don't know if this holds for mortals, but if one half of the partnership is Elf then it must mean they become married at that point. So for Elves, there is simply no possibility of sex outside marriage. The text can indeed often be suggestive, but the rules must always be considered. In the case of Beren and Luthien, if they had slept together then what would be the point of Thingol's trickery? It would all be in vain from his point of view.

When we read the text where it is suggestive of sex and interpret it that way, then that is our own ideas being laid onto it. If it is not a possibility according to Tolkien then the reality is that they probably did little more than holding hands. We might find it impossible to hold out for so long, but why should the people in Arda? Elves have all the time in the world to do whatever they wish, and to hold out for a few more months/years will probably seem like no time at all to them. Though how it must feel to the mortal in the partnership I don't know! Perhaps this explains why men such as Beren and Aragorn have such a sense of determination, they are trying to distract themselves?

Of course, this all depends upon whether we ought to apply Tolkien's rules to PJ's films. But if we do not, then much of what is heart-wrenching about Aragorn and Arwen's tale would become redundant anyway.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

That's cool. I'm mostly basing it on the relationship between Beren & Luthien, since I'm pretty much convinced that they did it right away. Not that it matters.

Ah well so am I and in HoME Tolkien categorically states that they didn't!!! But I posted in Ooh la la so again I won't repeat!.. But going on the silmarilion text ... our modern eyes read a lot more into some things so I do understand why it is read that way - I mean the mores re pre-marital sex have just about completely reversed - when Tolkien was a young man, couples were expected to wait and a nos jours ..... Oh Lal as usual has said it so much better!

Personally the literary did they /didn't they that has always intrigues me was Dorothea and Mr Casaubon in Middlemarch ...

[Eruanna]

Originally posted by Alatar:
however, being married more than just a few years, I would not consider my and my wife's life together to be considered fantasy romance. Don't people prefer to see something fantastic, whether it be 'gymnastics' between two buff bods or tear-extracting romance where the couple just have the most perfect conversations, words on their lips, meaningful looks, and remember every anniversary with a unique and well-thought out gift (hand-made, of course)?

I think that most people would prefer the fantasy version. After all, we want to be entertained or lifted out of our more ordinary lives for a few hours.
I too have been married for more than a few years. So long, in fact that just remembering the anniversary is enough, let alone the unique, hand-made gift

As to that part of your original question, 'is even the suggestion of a non-consumated relationship fitting for a fantasy movie involving high romance?'
I would say yes, it is quite fitting. These are not everyday, mundane characters. Arwen is a sort of 'Holy Grail' of womanhood, she is not to be won without the greatest hardship and sacrifice. That is what makes their eventual wedding so satisfying.
I must say that the more I read of Elven custom and lore, the more I agree with Lalwendë and Mithalwen that Aragorn and Arwen would have been considered already married if they had 'done the deed'. This is definitely a case of PJ muddying the waters with his having Arwen set off for the Havens.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

I think that most people would prefer the fantasy version. After all, we want to be entertained or lifted out of our more ordinary lives for a few hours.
I too have been married for more than a few years. So long, in fact that just remembering the anniversary is enough, let alone the unique, hand-made gift

Note that my wife and I have a great relationship, but would assume that the 16-25 years old crowd would find our life a bit dull and definitely unromantic - as we would now, being older and possibly wiser, see their relationships as a bit silly and shallow.

As to that part of your original question, 'is even the suggestion of a non-consumated relationship fitting for a fantasy movie involving high romance?'
I would say yes, it is quite fitting. These are not everyday, mundane characters. Arwen is a sort of 'Holy Grail' of womanhood, she is not to be won without the greatest hardship and sacrifice. That is what makes their eventual wedding so satisfying.
I must say that the more I read of Elven custom and lore, the more I agree with Lalwendë and Mithalwen that Aragorn and Arwen would have been considered already married if they had 'done the deed'. This is definitely a case of PJ muddying the waters with his having Arwen set off for the Havens.

I had wondered that we were reading too much into the scenes as maybe today's youthful romantics might see the same and never think that that something had occurred. As stated, it could be possible that people today could be that familiar without being intimate - don't know.

[Lush]

In the films we see Arwen heading for the boat to Valinor, after the scene where they have supposedly slept together

I thought that was one of the most screwed-up plot changes in the entire three films combined. I think they simply added that for dramatic effect; I do not believe that their intention was to try to define the status of the Aragorn and Arwen relationship. Therefore, I have a hard time using that as evidence to back up either argument in regards to whether or not they were already "doing it."

our modern eyes read a lot more into some things so I do understand why it is read that way - I mean the mores re pre-marital sex have just about completely reversed - when Tolkien was a young man, couples were expected to wait and a nos jours .....

Yes, but if we are to agree that for Elves sex is an act of marriage, then there is no such thing as pre-marital sex. It's not even an issue. Hence, if Aragorn & Arwen, or Beren & Luthien, are "doing it," then that's their business. I looked back at my Luthien thread to refresh my memory on your comments there; and I agree that it throws new light on the issue, but I'm also not sure that Beren & Luthien went on that dangerous quest just to be able to, you know, have sex. I think Beren's reputation and Luthien's love for her father were at stake as much as anything. I would agree that having no public ceremony was not really done, but when you take the entire tale in context and all the other horrible stuff going on around Beren & Luthien at that time, it actually makes sense for them to keep their commitment private.

Could you possibly provide the HoME quote you are referring to?

[HerenIstarion]

(Laws and Customs among the Eldar)

The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among
them.

Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar. It took place in this way. Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in days of peace); but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the
judgement of the parents of either party.

In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrothed gave silver rings one to another. According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound then to stand for one year at least, and it often stood for longer. During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings, the rings then being molten and not again used for a
betrothal. Such was the law; but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

Nonetheless among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fulfilled. Love was not always returned; and more than one might desire one other for spouse. Concerning this, the only cause by which sorrow entered the bliss of Aman, the Valar were in doubt. Some held that it came from the marring of Arda, and from the Shadow under which the Eldar awoke; for thence only (they said) comes grief or disorder. Some held that it came of love itself, and of the freedom of each fea, and was a mystery of the nature of the Children of Eru.

After the betrothal it was the part of the betrothed to appoint the time of their wedding, when at least one year had passed. Then at a feast, again shared by the two houses, the marriage was celebrated. At the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and blessed them. For this blessing
there was a solemn form, but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwe by the father; and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time). The betrothed then received back one from the other their silver rings (and treasured them); but they gave in exchange slender rings of
gold, which were worn upon the index of the right hand.

Among the Noldor also it was a custom that the bride's mother should give to the bridegroom a jewel upon a chain or collar; and the bridegroom's father should give a like gift to the bride. These gifts were sometimes given before the feast. (Thus the gift of Galadriel to Aragorn, since she was in place of Arwen's mother, was in part a bridal gift and earnest of the
wedding that was later accomplished.)

But these ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage; they were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested, and the union was recognized which would join not only the betrothed but their two houses together. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete. In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the
Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to
another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged
and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike
indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and
exile and wandering, such marriages were often made. [Thus Beren and
Tinuviel could lawfully have wedded, but for Beren's oath to Thingol.]

The underlined sentence probably expressing the following:

(Ephesians 5:28-5:30)

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

also

Corinthians 6:16 - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

also

Mark 10:8 - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

The meaning being, the mere act of love is enough for the 'flesh' to become 'one', the rest being rituals

So, in Elves Tolkien was making 'real' what he held to be real for humans: sex is an act of marriage.

Aragorn and Arwen: I do not suppose they were 'doing it':

Compare wording, btw:

(In Lorien, Aragorn aged 49)

But Aragorn answered: "Alas! I cannot foresee it, and how lit may come to pass is hidden from me. Yet with your hope I will hope. And the Shadow I utterly reject. But neither, lady, is the Twilight for me; for I am mortal, and if you will cleave to me, Evenstar, then the Twilight you must also renounce."

'And she stood then as still as a white tree, looking into the West, and at last she said: "I will cleave to you, Dúnadan, and turn from the Twilight. Yet there lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin." She loved her father dearly.

with:

Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

(Consciously so in the revision )

That was a side note, to back me up in my quoting of the New Testament. Now for the 'doing it':

Rivendell, Aragorn aged 20

'But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts. One day, therefore, before the fall of the year he called Aragorn to his chamber, and he said: "Aragorn, Arathorn's son, Lord of the Dúnedain, listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it."

and also

(Rivendell, Aragorn aged around 50)

My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to the. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace lot less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.

and finally

And at last when all was done he entered into the inheritance of his fathers and received the crown of Gondor and sceptre of Arnor; and at Midsummer in the year of the Fall of Sauron he took the hand of Arwen Undómiel, and they were wedded in the city of the Kings.

'Took the hand' implies it was a first time.

cheers

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

Yes, but if we are to agree that for Elves sex is an act of marriage, then there is no such thing as pre-marital sex. It's not even an issue.

You failed to include the vital first phrase "going on the silmarillion text" by which I meant if you did not know HoME and so the laws and customs of the Eldar it is easy to read certain phrases as evidence that they had consummated their relationship before marriage. Obviously if you know the "law" the consummation would have been the marriage.....

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lush

Yes, but if we are to agree that for Elves sex is an act of marriage, then there is no such thing as pre-marital sex. It's not even an issue.

To back up just a step, assume that in the movie just after the Bridge scene that Aragorn and Arwen have a grand moment of passion (or whatever euphemism you'd like to add). Now, I have no problem if people 'see' that as that's their thing.

Now in TTT we have Aragorn in Arwen's room. Okay, so we allow that they've experienced physical intimacy, but do they have to act like a mortal man and woman not of high/royal lineage? It's a fantasy film, he's the heir of kings and she's an elven princess, they are in Rivendell in Dad's house, important events are on the horizon and Aragorn acts (to me) like he's in some dorm room with some woman he's been sharing space with for a few semesters - nothing to spectacular going on here, and this is just another day.

Where's the fantasy, the dream-like quality of the scene? I expect the almost-King to keep his shirt buttoned up unless off camera.

Or do modern films have only 'mortal/flawed' heroes/princes and heroines/princesses?