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#1 |
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Pile O'Bones
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You are also implying, with the numbers put forth, that every Elf fought in every battle. This doesn't make sense for a few reasons;
1) You have to assume that at least half of the Noldor present in Middle Earth were female, as it was not an army leaving Aman, but rather the migration of a people, or kindred. 2) Tactically, there is a reserve in every battle. Even in the Battle in which Fëanor was slain, the existence of a reserve is implied. "There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come up with force to his aid..." -Silm. p107. Thus, not every elf INVOLVED in the battle would have participated in the actual fighting. 3) Also, the slaying of millions of elves is unfeasible, in my opinion. It oft says that elves were slow to reproduce, and did not have many children, and did not marry until late. I mean honestly, Thingol stood in the woods with Melian for like, a thousand years holding her under the stars... if it took all elves that long to reproduce there wouldn't be very many of them at all, to say the least. I highly doubt that there could have even been millions of elves (of all the kindreds combined) in Beleriand at all, much less millions to slay. On another note, does anyone know anything about the composition of forces in the First/Second Battle? The equipment of certain companies, their leaders, and their doings and happenings? I know in The Book of Lost Tales 2, the account of the Fall of Gondolin is very in depth and detailed in that matter... is there anything of that sort pertaining to the first two battles under the moon? |
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#2 |
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Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
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I'm not sure Thingol and Melian could really qualify for normal elvish mating practices.
Millions might be a stretch but I think somewhere in the area of maybe one million (maybe a little more) for a total elven population in Beleriand is reasonable (including all kindreds and realms). Less than this and you begin to have a hard time picturing how their kingdoms managed to survive and function at all, especially considering the amount of territory they had to cover. I have always assumed that the population of Men in Beleriand was always much less than the elves. The population of Dwarves in the mountains is also difficult to estimate although clearly it would be less than the elves.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#3 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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For a while I can only get to the intrnet sporadically, I need a new one to use the high-spee connection, but here's some observations on the Second Battle of Beleriand, Dagor-nuin-Giliath, Battle-Under-Stars.
This was actually a curious battle in that neither side had good intel about the weapons and capabilities of the other. Also, Feanor's lads were actually virtual novices, their only significant action being pushing around the outarmed Teleri. After "Sonny" Feanor's (you can't do business with that hothead ) hastiness(what would Treebeard have thought) the Noldor initially prevailed due to their "potent swords" and the daunting effect on the nassty orcsees of the Light of Aman undimmed in their eyes. So the orcs were surprised by the Noldor abilities, and then the Noldor were taken unawares by the Balrogs. Having just seen a cable tv program discussing requirements for (defensive, in this case) battles featuring Kursk and a German World War I defensive, it's remarkable how much the Noldor and Morgoth's lads totally ignored the importance of recon and intel collection, and that both sides did later improve their efforts, recall the Noldor even sending patrols north of Angband. Speculation: if Feanor was less hasty and survived the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, would that have been a plus? He was a creative guy, but probably would have made Noldor reconciliation (not to mention with Doriath) rather problematic. Also: thanks for P.M.s. I'm poor at figuring out how to send them, may get around to doing so.
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#4 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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Dagor Aglareb
The Third battle seems to feature another example of poor intel reconaissance by Morgoth while the Noldor (aided by Ulmo) appear to be thinking several steps ahead of M.- Turgon and Finrod being inspired to begin their search for refuges while M.'s spies misread the situation in Beleriand, believing that the Noldor are "wandering abroad with little thought to war". Morgoth tries to use shock and awe (volcanoes and earthquakes) and then sends raiding parties east and west with the main effort in Dorthonion. But good Noldor intel and preparation (prior planning prevents poor performance ) leads toNoldor special forces eliminating the orc raiders while the nassty orcsees in Dorthonion are destroyed. However, a glaring planning error of the elves seems to be their neglecting to plan for an effective siege and seizing of Angband (and how else will they get back the Silmarils? As for Morgoth, in the Dagor Aglareb he seems remarkably unimaginative. Both elves and Morgoth here seem in somewhat of a World War I mentality, not thinking creatively For example, ignoring tactical implimentation failures, Churchill with tanks and the Dardanelles ploy). However, Morgoth does seem to learn from his errors. He significantly upgrades his intel, both through more effective use of spies and a form of "brainwashing" of captured elves, and his developing new weapons systems. And by the by, why were Noldorin elves deterred by ice and snow north of Angbad, when you recall Leggy's walking on snow at Caradhras, and being uneffected by the cold?
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#5 |
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Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 16
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Concerning the war of wrath. It is said that the war broke the land and sunk beleriand into the sea, leaving only Forlindon and Harlindon. is it possible that the valar participated in the battle as well? can the host of noldor and vanyar alone wield enough power to sunk a continent?
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