Be LotR be an allegory fer fightin' Communism? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

05-03-2005, 04:12 AM

You have a point, Squidy, but please don't stereotype people.

I, for one, am my own person. There are others, too.

eowyntje · 05-03-2005, 05:07 AM

good points, I'm not saying tolkien was a racist and such, I'm just saying there are arguments for it, and they should not be overlooked as jokes.

**The Saucepan Man** · 05-03-2005, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eowyntje

I'm not saying tolkien was a racist and such, I'm just saying there are arguments for it, and they should not be overlooked as jokes.

This is a subject that has been discussed a number of time previously. Here are some pertinent threads:

Racism and Tolkien
Are Tolkien Books racist?
Lord of the Rings labelled racist
Racism in LotR?
A Disturbing Development

Evisse the Blue · 05-03-2005, 07:36 AM

I do think however you got the last bit wrong, Squidy. JRRT was not a time traveller, but a psychic. Clairvoyant to be more precise. He also had the ability to communicate telepathically with other dimensions (parallel worlds) and saw the developments there, that were not unlike those about to happen in this world. He saw the similarities and he wrote them down in this clever fictional disguise. So we don't live in Tolkien's Middle Earth, but in a second version of that Middle Earth. This is why Tolkien disregarded the allegory idea. Because it's not about allegory, it's about alternate realities. Get it?

Where's the proof, you'll ask? Well, didn't he say he merely recorded all these things, not invented them? Sure, with all you nonbelievers out there, he had to take this back in an end, but I bet he was muttering under his breah 'e pur si muove'.

Saurreg · 05-03-2005, 07:36 AM

From an outsider's point of view (i.e. neither from the western or eastern orthodox civilizations) I tend to find the dividing the line between capitalism and stalinism into "us or them" or the "good vs evil" sides amusing.

I try not to stereotype but from my impression, people living between both sides of the iron curtain during the cold war years tend to be indoctrinated and influenced into thinking that the other side is really bad. They are exposed to so much propaganda that any little aspect which, resembles a characteristic (factual or not) of the other another side is automatically deemed associated with that other side. In short its allegorical inquisition gone amok (which, incidently is a Malay word).

It's easy to understand why such paranoia can exist during the heady years but for it to find expression now is trully incredible. Perhaps the deep fear and distain for "the other side" are so strong that it has become part of the antagonists' cultural identity.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 05-03-2005, 07:51 AM

Yes, but....what about The Lord of the Rings?

For my money, I'm going to be bold and say that the book is not such an allegory. The giveaway sign is in the names of the villains, Sauron and Saruman. If it was all about fighting communism then they would be called Commosticus and perhaps Marxavious.

Which makes me wonder......Saur, Sar.....what's it all about.....

Does HoME mention the significance of the names?

eowyntje · 05-03-2005, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

This is a subject that has been discussed a number of time previously. Here are some pertinent threads:

Racism and Tolkien
Are Tolkien Books racist?
Lord of the Rings labelled racist
Racism in LotR?
A Disturbing Development

thanks you , I will have a look at those

05-03-2005, 05:07 AM	#2
eowyntje Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 47	good points, I'm not saying tolkien was a racist and such, I'm just saying there are arguments for it, and they should not be overlooked as jokes. __________________ No matter what they think or what they do, No matter what they feel Or what they see in you, You're gonna get there, Whatever they say, And nobody's going to stand, in the way

05-03-2005, 07:36 AM	#4
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	*Laughs merrily* I do think however you got the last bit wrong, Squidy. JRRT was not a time traveller, but a psychic. Clairvoyant to be more precise. He also had the ability to communicate telepathically with other dimensions (parallel worlds) and saw the developments there, that were not unlike those about to happen in this world. He saw the similarities and he wrote them down in this clever fictional disguise. So we don't live in Tolkien's Middle Earth, but in a second version of that Middle Earth. This is why Tolkien disregarded the allegory idea. Because it's not about allegory, it's about alternate realities. Get it? Where's the proof, you'll ask? Well, didn't he say he merely recorded all these things, not invented them? Sure, with all you nonbelievers out there, he had to take this back in an end, but I bet he was muttering under his breah 'e pur si muove'. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

05-03-2005, 07:36 AM	#5
Saurreg Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In self imposed exile... Posts: 465	From an outsider's point of view (i.e. neither from the western or eastern orthodox civilizations) I tend to find the dividing the line between capitalism and stalinism into "us or them" or the "good vs evil" sides amusing. I try not to stereotype but from my impression, people living between both sides of the iron curtain during the cold war years tend to be indoctrinated and influenced into thinking that the other side is really bad. They are exposed to so much propaganda that any little aspect which, resembles a characteristic (factual or not) of the other another side is automatically deemed associated with that other side. In short its allegorical inquisition gone amok (which, incidently is a Malay word). It's easy to understand why such paranoia can exist during the heady years but for it to find expression now is trully incredible. Perhaps the deep fear and distain for "the other side" are so strong that it has become part of the antagonists' cultural identity. __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. " ~Voltaire

05-03-2005, 07:51 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Yes, but....what about The Lord of the Rings? For my money, I'm going to be bold and say that the book is not such an allegory. The giveaway sign is in the names of the villains, Sauron and Saruman. If it was all about fighting communism then they would be called Commosticus and perhaps Marxavious. Which makes me wonder......Saur, Sar.....what's it all about..... Does HoME mention the significance of the names? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

05-03-2005, 04:12 AM	#1
orlandoscowgal Guest Posts: n/a	You have a point, Squidy, but please don't stereotype people. I, for one, am my own person. There are others, too.