Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Aiwendil]

A few more comments, up to TI-07.5. Sorry I'm moving along with this so slowly.

NA-TI-05: I'm not certain about this. Here is a case where it would really be helpful to have the actual Narn texts instead of just CRT's version. It's possible, after all, that the reason the statement is not in the "final" text is that Tolkien decided against it. I am somewhat inclined to exclude the note to be safe.

NA-TI-06: I have less of a reservation about using this note; but I think the placement of it may be awkward.

NA-EX-27: I agree that this is not a perfect place for this material; but you are right that it must be included somewhere. This place seems as good as any to me.

NA-TI-07: I would rather not include this note. Again, I wish we knew more about this "variant text". But in this case it offers a distinctly different story from the given text. When and to whom Turin reveals his true identity is not a trivial point. I would take the safer course and follow the more authoritative "final text", in the absence of other evidence.

NA-TI-07.5: A similar problem. If we knew that the final text given by CRT was in fact Tolkien's final intention, then clearly we would omit the note, leaving the geography what it is in that text, whether it makes sense or not. But of course we don't know that. I suppose I can agree with adding the explication from the note. However, as the emendation stands it is ungrammatical and seems to alter the intended movements:

NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {they}Túrin and his band remained in the Vale of Sirion{, and indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version} they went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelin-uial and the Fens of Sirion{"; but}/. But/ the men {becoming}became discontented in that {"}harbourless land{",}/. Thus/ Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>

I suggest:

NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {they}Túrin and his band went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelin-uial and the Fens of Sirion{"}; but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>

We may also want an introductory "Now" or some such thing, for otherwise it's a sudden transition.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

Here is a case where it would really be helpful to have the actual Narn texts instead of just CRT's version. It's possible, after all, that the reason the statement is not in the "final" text is that Tolkien decided against it.

That's definitly true for many parts in the Narn. And it would also be a nice read, to be sure, if The History of the Túrin-Saga would be published.

NA-EX-27: So we agree on this.

NA-TI-05: In this particular case you might be right. Christopher Tolkien said in his forword:

... The concluding section (from The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin to the Death of Túrin) has undergone only marginal editorial alteration; while the first section (to the end of Túrin in DOriath) required a good deal of revision and selection, and in some places some slight compression, the original texts being scrappy and disconected. But the central section of the narrative (Túrin among the outlaws, Mîm the Petty-dwarf, the land of Dor-Cúrathol, the Death of Beleg at Túrins hand, and Túrin's life in Nargothrond) constituted a much more difficult editorial problem. ...

He does not give the rules by which he made his 'selections' but since he had surely had the better state of info than we have we should may be follow his lead.

NA-TI-06: What about this palcement:

... Thus for a little while his mood was lightened, until he fell again under shadow, and that friendship passed like a morning of spring. For NA-TI-06<NA; Note 7 always{Always} he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith{.}, and> Nellas did not go to Menegroth, and ...

NA-TI-07: I agree that it is the saver way not to include this. The note does provide the alternative text at lenght, so that our addition could only be halfe original. But the argument about Túrins identity is not really valid. At latest when he put on the Dragon-helm brought by Beleg any men from Dor-Lómin would have know who he was.

NA-TI-07.5: Reading it again I must say that we should even make the first part past perfect since it is already in retrospect. What does not sweet me in your version is the loss of "remained in the Vale of Sirion". Thus I would suggest:

Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}NA-TI-07.2 <NA; note 11 {they}They remained in the Vale of Sirion, and {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they} went away southwards>.
Many messengers had been sent ...
...
... But they for their part became aware that they were trailed by some tireless pursuer, whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 Túrin and his band {came}had come to the country {"}above the Aelinuial and the Fens of Sirion{"}; but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

In answer to post #5 were Aiwendil remarked that he missed some markings of my editing, I have reworked the section in question. I give here therfore the complet battle in full text (I think the text is short enough for such a treatment). Mark that all editings NA-TI-04 to NA-TI-04.8 are based on GA, appended Note 2.

NA-EX-16 {The Words of Húrin and Morgoth} <Sil77 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad>
Many songs are sung and many tales are told by the Elves of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. If all were retold a man's life would not suffice for the hearing{; 2}NA-TI-04<GA; appended Note 2. Here then shall be recounted {only}[especially] those deeds which bear upon the fate of the House of Hador and the children of Húrin the Steadfast.
Having gathered at length all the strength that he could {Maedhros}[Maeðros] appointed a day, the morning of Midsummer. On that day the trumpets of the Eldar greeted the rising of the Sun, and in the east was raised the standard of the Sons of Fëanor; and in the west the standard of Fingon, King of the Noldor. Then Fingon looked out from the walls of Eithel Sirion, and his host was arrayed in the valleys and woods upon the east borders of Eryd-wethion, well hid from the eyes of the Enemy; but he knew that it was very great. For there all the Noldor of Hithlum were assembled, and to them were gathered many Elves of the Falas and of Nargothrond; and he had great strength of Men. Upon the right were stationed the host of Dor-lomin and all the valour of Húrin and Huor his brother, and to them had come NA-EX-17<editorial addition Haldir and> Hundar of Brethil, their kinsman, with many men of the woods.
Then Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, and he knew that Maeðros had set forth; and he rejoiced. Then he looked towards Thangorodrim, and behold! there was a dark cloud about it and a black smoke went up; and he knew that the wrath of Morgoth was kindled and that their challenge would be accepted, and a shadow fell upon his heart. But at that moment a cry went up, passing on the wind from the south from vale to vale, and Elves and Men lifted up their voices in wonder and joy. For unsummoned and unlooked-for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army, ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest. Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: Utulie'n aure! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatarni, sctulie'n aure! (The day has come! Lo, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!) And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: Auta i lome! (The night is passing!)
It was not long before the great battle was joined. For Morgoth knew much of what was done and designed by his foes and had laid his plans against the hour of their assault. Already a great force out of Angband was drawing near to Hithlum, while another and greater went to meet Maeðros to prevent the union of the powers of the kings. And those that came against Fingon were clad all in dun raiment and showed no naked steel, and thus were already far over the sands before their approach became known.
Then the hearts of the Noldor grew hot, and their captains wished to assail their foes on the plain; but Fingon spoke against this.
'Beware of the guile of Morgoth, lords!' he said. 'Ever his strength is more than it seems, and his purpose other than he reveals. Do not reveal your own strength, but let the enemy spend his first in assault on the hills. At least until the signal of {Maedhros}[Maeðros] is seen.' For it was the design of the kings that Maeðros should march openly over the Anfauglith with all his strength, of Elves and of Men and of Dwarves; and when he had drawn forth, as he hoped, the main armies of Morgoth in answer, then Fingon should come on from the west, and so the might of Morgoth should be taken as between hammer and anvil and be broken to pieces; and the signal for this was to be the firing of a great beacon in Dorthonion.
But the Captain of Morgoth in the west had been commanded to draw out Fingon from his hills by whatever means he could. NA-TI-04.1<Sil77 He marched on therefore until the front of his battle was drawn up before the stream of Sirion, from the walls of the fortress of Eithel Sirion to the inflowing of Rivil at the Fen of Serech; and the outposts of Fingon could see the eyes of their enemies. But there was no answer to his challenge, and the taunts of the Orcs faltered as they looked upon the silent walls and the hidden threat of the hills. Then the Captain of Morgoth sent out riders with tokens of parley, and they rode up before the outworks of the Barad Eithel. With them they brought Gelmir son of Guilin, that lord of Nargothrond whom they had captured in the Bragollach; and they had blinded him. Then the heralds of Angband showed him forth, crying: 'We have many more such at home, but you must make haste if you would find them; for we shall deal with them all when we return even so.' And they hewed off Gelmir's hands and feet, and his head last, within sight of the Elves, and left him.
By ill chance, at that NA-TI-04.2{place in the outworks}< GA; appended Note 2 point in the outposts> stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host. And seeing this all the host of the Noldor was set on fire, and Fingon put on his white helm and sounded his trumpets, and all the host of Hithlum leapt forth from the hills in sudden onslaught. The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds; and so fell and swift was their onset that almost the designs of Morgoth went astray. Before the army that he sent westward could be strengthened it was swept away, and the banners of Fingon passed over Anfauglith and were raised before the walls of Angband. Ever in the forefront of that battle went Gwindor and the Elves of Nargothrond, and even now they could not be restrained; and they burst through the Gate and slew the guards upon the very stairs of Angband, and Morgoth trembled upon his deep throne, hearing them beat upon his doors. But they were trapped there, and all were slain save Gwindor only, whom they took alive; for Fingon could not come to their aid. By many secret doors in Thangorodrim Morgoth had let issue forth his main host that he held in waiting, and Fingon was beaten back with great loss from the walls.>
NA-TI-04.3 < GA; appended Note 2 Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain. NA-EX-18{Of all that befell in the eastward battle: of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost;} NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came {upon the Orcs}up, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs{ a thousand}, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons. And the strength and terror of the Great Worm were now grown great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came {between}[upon] the hosts of {Maidros}[Maeðros]{ and Fingon} and swept them apart.> NA-EX-20< GA
Last of all the eastern force to stand firm NA-EX-21<editorial additionagainst the worms and drakes> were the Enfeng of Belegost, and thus won renown. Now the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was the custom moreover of the Enfeng to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon, which stood them in good stead against the drakes. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage he turned and struck down Azaghâl of Belegost and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghâl drove a knife into his belly and so wounded him that he fled the field and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Had Azaghâl but borne a sword great woe would have been spared to the Noldor that after befell but his knife went not deep enough. But then the Enfeng raised up the body of Azaghâl and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind, singing a dirge in their deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their own country, and gave no heed more to their foes; and indeed none dared to stay them.
>{ of the treachery of the Easterlings and the overthrow of the host of Maedhros and} NA-EX-22<GA Yet neither by wolf, balrog, nor dragon would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed; for many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to the side of Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor. And in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the Accursed, the leader in treason, and Bor and his sons slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. But new strength of evil men came up that Uldor had summoned and kept hidden in the eastern hills, and the host of {Maidros}[Maeðros] being assailed now on three sides, by the Orcs, and the beasts, and by the Swarthy Men, was dispersed and fled this way and that. Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded, none were slain, for they drew together and gathering a remnant of Noldor and of the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped towards Mount Dolmed.> Of the flight of the Sons of Fëanor, no more is here said.
In the west the host of Fingon retreated over the sands > NA-TI-04.4 <Sil77, and Haldir lord of the Haladin was slain in the rearguard; with him fell most of the Men of Brethil, and came never back to their woods. But on the fifth day as night fell, and they were still far from Ered Wethrin, the Orcs surrounded the host of Hithlum, and they fought until day, pressed ever closer. In the morning came hope, when the horns of Turgon were heard as he marched up with the main host of Gondolin; for they had been stationed southward guarding the Pass of Sirion, and Turgon restrained most of his people from the rash onslaught. Now he hastened to the aid of his brother; and the Gondolindrim were strong and clad in mail, and their ranks shone like a river of steel in the sun.>
NA-TI-04.5<GA; appended Note 2 Now the phalanx of the guard of the King broke through the ranks of the Orcs, and Turgon hewed his way to the side of his brother. And it is said that the meeting of Turgon with Húrin who stood beside Fingon was glad in the midst of battle. For a while then the hosts of Angband were driven back, and Fingon again began his retreat. But having routed {Maedhros}[Maeðros] in the east Morgoth had now great forces to spare, and before Fingon and Turgon could come to the shelter of the hills they were assailed by a tide of foes thrice greater than all the force that was left to them.> NA-TI-04.6<Sil77 Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elvenhosts, surrounding King Fingon, and thrusting Turgon and Húrin aside towards the Fen of Serech. Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.
The field was lost; but still Húrin and Huor and the remnant of the house of Hador stood firm with Turgon of Gondolin, and the hosts of Morgoth could not yet win the Pass of Sirion. Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
But Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.'
Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!'
And Maeglin, Turgon's sister-son, who stood by, heard these words, and did not forget them; but he said nothing.
Then Turgon took the counsel of Húrin and Huor, and summoning all that remained of the host of Gondolin and such of Fingon's people as could be gathered he retreated towards the Pass of Sirion; and his captains Ecthelion and Glorfindel guarded the flanks to right and left, so that none of the enemy should pass them by. But the Men of Dor-lómin held the rearguard, as Húrin and Huor desired; for they did not wish in their hearts to leave the Northlands, and if they could not win back to their homes, there they would stand to the end. Thus was the treachery of Uldor redressed; and of all the deeds of war that the fathers of Men wrought in behalf of the Eldar, the last stand of the Men of Dor-lómin is most renowned.
So it was that Turgon fought his way southward, until coming behind the guard of Húrin and Huor he passed down Sirion and escaped; and he vanished into the mountains and was hidden from the eyes of Morgoth. But the brothers drew the remnant of the Men of the house of Hador about them, and foot by foot they withdrew, until they came behind the Fen of Serech, and had the stream of Rivil before them. There they stood and gave way no more.
Then all the hosts of Angband swarmed against them, and they bridged the stream with their dead, and encircled the remnant of Hithlum as a gathering tide about a rock. There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset.
Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and NA-TI-04.7<GA; appended Note 2seized the axe of an Orc-captain and wielded it>{wielded an axe} two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.
Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the West.
>
NA-TI-04.8<GA; §241 Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Beor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children.
The March of {Maidros}[Maeðros] was no more. The fell sons of Fëanor were broken and wandered far away in the woods as leaves before the wind. The Gorge of Aglon was filled with Orcs, and the Hill of Himring was garrisoned by soldiers of Angband; the pass of Sirion was pierced Na-EX-22.5{ and Tol-sirion retaken and its dread towers rebuilt}. All the gates of Beleriand were in the power of Morgoth. The realm of Fingon was no more. To Hithlum came back never one of Fingon's host, nor any of the Men of Hador, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords.> NA-EX-23<GA, §252 And Morgoth now broke his pledges to the Easterlings that had served him, and denied to them the rich lands of Beleriand which they coveted, and he sent away these evil folk into Hithlum, and there commanded them to dwell. And little though they now loved their new king, yet they despised the remnant of the folk of Hador (the aged and the women and the children for the most part), and they oppressed them, and took their lands and goods, and wedded their women by force, and enslaved their children. And those of the Grey-elves that had dwelt there fled into the mountains, or were taken to the mines of the North and laboured there as thralls.>
NA-EX-24<GA Now the Orcs in token of the great triumph of Angband gathered with great labour all the bodies of their enemies that were slain, and all their harness and weapons, and they piled them, Elves and Men, in a great hill in the midst of the Anfauglith. {Haud-ina-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] was the name of that mound, and it was like unto a hill. But thither alone in all the desert the grass came, and grew again long and green, and thereafter no Orc dared tread upon the earth beneath which the swords of the Noldor crumbled into rust.>
NA-EX-25<GA Doriath indeed remained, and Nargothrond was hidden, and Círdan held the Havens; but Morgoth gave small heed to them as yet, either for he knew little of them, or because their hour was not yet come in the deep purposes of his malice. But one thought troubled him deeply, and marred his triumph; Turgon had escaped the net, whom he most desired to take. For Turgon came of the great house of Fingolfin, and was now by right King of all the Noldor, and Morgoth feared and hated most the house of Fingolfin, because they had scorned him in Valinor, and had the friendship of Ulmo, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him in battle. Moreover of old his eye had lighted on Turgon, and a dark shadow fell on his heart, foreboding that, in some time that lay yet hidden in doom, from Turgon ruin should come to him.>

I hope this may help to creat some new impulse in the discussion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I am really very sorry for my long absence. I hope that I can get around to looking over more of the changes sometime this weekend.

NA-EX-19: I think we might actually stay closer to the original with:

NA-EX-19<GA But even as the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came {upon the Orcs}up, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength, and Angband was emptied. …

I don't understand the deletion of "and Angband was emptied" in your version.

NA-EX-21, -22: I'm still unsure about this. The trouble as I see it is that the Narn version is told exclusively from the point of view of the western host. Reading what we are given of the Narn version I do not feel at all sure that Uldor's plot was removed entirely. We have only the indirect evidence that Fingon sees dust rising in the east. There is also something of a minor mystery in the Narn text - though Maedhros sets forth at the right time, he does not fire the beacon. I suppose one could blame this on the second host sent from Angband to attack him - but wasn't the whole point of Maedhros's assault to draw out the forces of Angband, at which time the beacon would be fired?

So I still see think it quite possible that Uldor's machinations were retained and simply omitted from the Narn version, which focuses only on the western battle. I suppose, though, that this may not be enough to justify any actual, explicit reference to Uldor's plot. I need to think about this a little bit more.

Findegil wrote:

So what you suggest is that we have to mistrust Christopher Tolkien to the degree that he would add such features as the Troll-guard into the Sil77 out of the blue and does not tell us so in the GA but rather deceives us with the general sentence about “other features”?

No. This is an extreme example, and in the end I suppose we are better off following QS77. My only hesitation is the issue of trolls in the sunlight. For it was not night when they fought against Hurin - the sun was westering when Huor fell, by which time the final battle in the fen was already underway. And it was not until Hurin was captured that the sun was gone:

Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there cam a great storm of wind out of the West.

Even if one were to suppose that these exact timings are not reliable, and that night had fallen by the time Hurin fought with the troll-guard, there is still the problem that the troll-guard must have taken an appreciable time to cross the Anfauglith, and thus must have been travelling in daylight. Indeed, if they were with Gothmog, then earlier that day they were fighting Fingon farther north.

It is only for this reason that I wish we had more tangible proof that the troll-guard are in the Narn text. Ultimately, though, I agree that it is probably best to include them, despite the problems this creates.

NA-TI-01b: This version looks good to me. One very minor point - I would delete a comma:

there{ is in Ælfwine's version, and clearly} was in {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval]'s day{,} much archaic language, of words and usage,

NA-EX-12: Yours seems a reasonable solution.

NA-TI-06: I suppose this placement works.

NA-TI-07: Findegil wrote:

But the argument about Túrins identity is not really valid. At latest when he put on the Dragon-helm brought by Beleg any men from Dor-Lómin would have know who he was.

Good point. This had slipped my mind. Still, I think it's safer not to use this note.

NA-TI-07.5: I guess I'm a little worried here about whether there is a conflict between the "final" version where "it seems necessary to suppose . . . that they remained in the Vale of Sirion" and the "tentative version" wherein "they went away southwards . . . but the men becoming discontented in that "harbourless land", Turin was persuaded to lead them back." It seems to me that the implication in that tentative version is that they did not remain in the Vale of Sirion, but departed southward and later returned to the Vale of Sirion.

I would, then, either say simply that they remained in the Vale of Sirion (and exclude the bit where they go south) or say that they went southward (and exlude the claim that they "remained in the Vale of Sirion").

[Findegil]

I don't mind how slow the project goes on, as long as it still has a chance to go on at all!

NA-EX-19: Aiwendil worte:

I don't understand the deletion of "and Angband was emptied" in your version.

As I understand the course of the battle in the Narn version Morgoth sent one army against Fingon and one against Maedhros, both nearly at the same time. A third army he held back in Angband and sent it out when Fingon had approached his gate. In GA the western Army against Fingon was the first, then when Fingon was in front of Angband the second Army drove him back and when Maedhros finally approached the third army with Glaurung "emptied Angband". Thus in the Narn version it could not been said that Angband was emptied because Morgoth had still the forces in reserve that he used to drive Fingon from the gates back into the plain.

NA-EX-21, -22: The not fired bacon is really a riddle, but the course of the battle is clearly changed in the Narn version. From what we get in the Narn it seems clear to me that Maedhros was not late with his attack. There were no wishpers of treason in the western army. Thus if Uldor's machinations were still present they were not effective in the way they had been in Sil77. On the basis of this I can't see how we could work them in, without creating an entirely new thread in the story. A reason why the beacon never was fired could be that Maedhros was cut of from Dorthonion by the Easterlings of Uldor before he could sent the order to fire it. And afterwards he would not fire it in the hope that Fingon would be save from the disaster of that day when he stayed in Hithlum, not knowing that Fingon was already involved in fights of his own. On the other hand it would not be any great wonder if a bacon fired when Fingon was already fare out on Anfauglith would not be marked by many and not found any mention in the battle description.

Aiwendil wrote:

Even if one were to suppose that these exact timings are not reliable, and that night had fallen by the time Hurin fought with the troll-guard, there is still the problem that the troll-guard must have taken an appreciable time to cross the Anfauglith, and thus must have been travelling in daylight. Indeed, if they were with Gothmog, then earlier that day they were fighting Fingon farther north.

Yes, I suppose that the exact timings are not reliable to the least. And locking at the geography it is clear that night fell earlier in the gorge of Sirion father east than at the coast were it could be said that "the sun went down beyond the sea" equally if we are dealing with a round earth turning around it self or a flat earth with the sun running around in circles.
In the fight of Gothmog and Fingon there is no mention of the troll-guard, thus they were possibly not there. They might have been in the fighting the night before when Fingon was surrounded and hid themselves during the day in some dark place near at hand (Taur-nu-Fuin?), approaching the fight again when the sun went down behind Ered Wethrin.
In the The Hobbit the trolls changed into stone exactly when the sun peeped over the rim of the mountains, thus the trolls could stand the dawn, and I suppose the dusk as well.

Aiwendil wrote:

It is only for this reason that I wish we had more tangible proof that the troll-guard are in the Narn text. Ultimately, though, I agree that it is probably best to include them, despite the problems this creates.

Agreed, full heartedly!

NA-TI-01b, NA-EX-12 & NA-TI-06: So these points are done.

NA-TI-07: So what is about using the words of Algund in the place were Túrin takes up the helm. Thus we would get some more material for the rather week Dor-Cúrathol part:

NA-EX-34 <Ap Narn Beleg, appraoching Amon Rûdh, {came}had come upon their tracks, and{ either} trailed them to {a}the camp{ which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to Bar-en-Danwedh and slipped in after them}.>NA-TI-15 <Sil77 Thus Beleg returned once more to Túrin, and their meeting was glad; and with him he brought out of Dimbar the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin, thinking that it might lift Túrin's thought again above his life in the wilderness as the leader of a petty company.> NA-TI-15.5 <NA; Note 10 Then Algund, the old outlaw who had fled down Sirion from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, said{ that Túrin's}/: "Your/ eyes {had}/have/ long reminded {him}/me/ of another whom {he}/I/ could not recall, and{ that} now {he}/I/ knew {him}/you/ for the son of Húrin. {"'}But he was a smaller man, small for his kin, though filled with fire; and his hair gold-red. You are dark, and tall. I see your mother in you, now that I look closer; she was of Bëor's people. What fate was hers, I wonder.{' '}/" "/I do not know,{'}/"/ said Túrin. {'}/"/No word comes out of the North.{'}">
<Sil77 But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. ...>

NA-TI-07.5: The question seems to be how broad the vale of Sirion was in that area, and how exactly we should press the words "went away southwards". I can not see any contradiction between "went away southwards from the wood south of Taeglin" and staying in the vale of Sirion. Locking at the north-west section of the map in HoME 11 the camp of the Woodman is marked (labelled "Turin among the Outlaws) very near to the confluence of Taeglin and Sirion. (It is interesting that Túrin was driven by the orcs beyond the road that went down from the crossing of Taeglin, and came back in only three days.) But it seems also clear that Túrin and his band did not go exactly south from that place, since otherwise they would run into Doriath beyond Sirion. It is also later attested that they did not move fare from the River Taeglin or the borders of Doriath. Thus I think "southwards" means they followed the vale of the river Sirion to the south along the borders of Doriath. The vale of Sirion is later attested to be as broad as the woods shown on the map ("... the next day he led his men away, further than they had yet come from the {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the marches of Doriath. After three days' journeying they halted at the western edge of the woods of Sirion's Vale. There the land was drier and more bare, as it began to climb up into the moorlands.") Thus their is space enough for a journey southwards from the former haunts of the Outlaws but still remaining in the vale of Sirion.
Could it be that you, Aiwendil, placed the Woodman nearer to the crossing of Taeglin, as I did at first myself? Then a southward movement would clearly lead out of the vale of Sirion.
But the map does provide us with a place for the Woodman and the Outlaws that fits all statments in the text, I created, with the sole exception of Túrin twice crossing the road south of the crossing of Taeglin in a journey of only three days. But for that problem it is possible to disagree with Christopher Tolkiens statment "that that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen". It seems probable that they were much father to the west at that time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

A few more comments for the moment.

NA-TI-08.5: We might as well make this a footnote.

NA-EX-27.5: Again, we have "alternate" forms without any indication what their chronological relations are. I can at the moment think of no later source wherein we'd find the name, so I suppose we have no reason to think any form superior to the others. I suppose in that case, it's best to go with "Nibin-noeg".

NA-EX-27.7: This also looks okay to me as a footnote.

NA-TI-09: I'm not sure that the alternative form of the curse must be used - it's possible that Androg's curse simply didn't come true. It's Dwarves' curses that one is supposed to have to fear, not Mens'! Again, I wish we knew more about the various texts of the Narn and why Christopher used the version he did and called the other an "alternative". I suppose that since we don't have any information that suggests either version to be of higher priority, we may as well use the alternative.

NA-TI-11:

Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; NA-TI-11 <Sil77 {For}for Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> {nor did} Túrin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar.

I think that the insertion of this material makes "Turin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar" sound out of place. I think that better would be:

Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; nor did Túrin rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar.<Sil77 {For} Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.>

NA-EX-28.5:

Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. NA-EX- 28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin did learn /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm's sack when they had captured him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had at that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>

This definitely leaves the last sentence in an awkward position. This sentence must follow "Mim was well-pleased . . ." or the "Less pleased" loses its reference. We could try:

Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /But Túrin learned /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm's sack when they had found him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the flat stones{"}.>

But I'm not so sure that the inclusion of the note here is justified. There's no indication that Turin was to learn about the ingots of gold. I think it might be safer simply to omit it; the gold plays no further part in the story anyway.

On to the previous discussion:

NA-EX-19: Ah, I missed that alteration in the sequence of assaults.

NA-EX-21, -22: I suppose you're right.

NA-TI-07: Good idea; using it there seems to work.

NA-TI-07.5: I think you are right. I had been thinking of the "Vale of Sirion" as a smaller region - as, more or less, the area near the confluence of Taeglin and Sirion. But I suppose it makes more sense to think of it as a long valley cut by Sirion all the way down to Andram.

Still, I think that the phrasing of the passage as it now stands suggests a contradiction (even though there isn't one); I would rather make it:

Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country. NA-TI-07.2 <NA; note 11{they}They remained in the Vale of Sirion, {and} [but] {indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version they} went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the [Aelin-uial] and the Fens of Sirion{"}; but the men becoming discontented in that {"}harbourless land{"}, Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>

As long as we keep the movement southward, I don't see why we should not also keep the point that they went as far as Aelin-uial but turned back and came more or less back to their "previous haunts".

[Findegil]

NA-TI-08.5, NA-EX-27.7: Both were planed as footnotes. Maybe my editing was not entierly clear in this.

NA-TI-11: Your suggestions is a good deal better then mine.

NA-TI-28.5: I dessired to clear the riddle, and this was the only way I could think of doing so. If we retain it at all I would suggest to bring in a bit earlier:

Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; nor did Túrin rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar. NA-TI-11 <Sil77 For Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin learned that/{refers to} Mîm {seeking}/had sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> {And}But in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and {their name}[the name of the Petty-Dwarves] was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>

Thus we would only hint at the gold and admit only that Túrin did learn of the ancient history of Petty-Dwarves.

NA-TI-07.5: I did split use of the note for the reason that it would take some time before the outlaws came the land above Aelin-uial and became discontent their. In addition I find it much better to make Beleg follow them before we tell that they came at least back to the place were Beleg first found their track.

Respectfully
Findegil