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#1 | ||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Just before we leave this chapter I wanted to make a few comments on the llast conversation between Frodo & Faramir. We see Gollum desperately trying to convince both Faramir (& Frodo) that the pass of Cirith Ungol is the only way into Mordor:
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One final point on this ‘testing’ (I accept that this wasn’t Faramir’s intent, but I think that’s its effect on Frodo). There’s an old ballad, The False Knight on the Road, which seems to ‘echo’ this conversation between Frodo & Faramir: http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/d...tFALSKNGT.html The False Knight issues a series of challenges to the ‘Wee Boy’, which the child counters, each time turning the False Knight’s curse aside. Perhaps another example of Tolkien taking an aspect of ancient tradition & using it in his stories. Whether or not this ‘Magical Ballad’ played any part in this scene, we certainly see Frodo’s growth in both wisdom & in hopelessness - whether the two are natural bedfellows is another question. Frodo has come to the last point at which he can turn aside from his Quest, & he is confronted by a wise friend who seeks to convince him that that would be the best thing for him, even the only logical course of action. Frodo makes his decision, restates his vow to the Council, & commits himself to go on, without hope of success. Long ago, at that same council Gimli had said to Elrond that ‘sworn word may strengthen quaking heart’ & Elrond had responded ‘or break it.’ It seems that at this moment Frodo’s ‘sworn word’ is what gives him strength to overcome Faramir’s pleas, but it is also, in the end, what will break his heart.... |
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#2 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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#3 |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
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Just a few very quick thoughts.
I really would be hesitant to base any notion of Frodo’s inner character on his impulses in tight spots. Even a saintly person can experience similar thoughts, but it is what is ultimately done that is the true proof of mental or moral strength. It has been mentioned that Faramir might represent Frodo’s our inner voice, his misgivings. perhaps there is a bit of a parallel between Faramir and Frodo, both are in seemingly helpless situations and led by individuals who have become corrupted by Sauron’s power indirectly. Yet both Frodo and Faramir are committed to their duty and go forward despite the odds. It seems that Faramir’s dialog hints at his own decisions as well. Finally, the mention of the palantir at the end is interesting to me. Through these last few chapters I have been debating whether Faramir knew about the seeing stone in Minas Tirith. For if he did it might have some bearing on why he would pass up the Ring, having seen what the palantir did to his father. (Plus the Ring was called Isildir's Bane for heavens sake, not Isildir’s pride and joy!) |
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#4 |
Deadnight Chanter
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brief in, soon out
Since childhood I felt it was probably better to tell Gollum the truth by the pool. 'They are going to shoot you, but for me' may have had a tint of threat to it, but would save the misery of Gollum feeling betrayed (this is the chapter where I really start to feel pity towards poor chap too).
With recent 'enchantement' debates in mind, I would state that I do find Frodo's behavior plausible, and it does not ruin the flow of the narrative. Frightened Gollum would have [probably] bolted and got shot. But, leaving aside 'what's and 'if's, I still feel (co-feel with Gollum?) it was unfair of Frodo (a bit) to 'misuse' Gollum's trust.
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#5 |
Dead Serious
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A quick chapter--but not quick enough to warrant this being only the tenth post on this thread! This chapter pivots the whole relationship between Frodo and Gollum, thereby shifting the whole plot to come. After this, Sam is almost of a mediary between Frodo and Gollum where before it was Frodo between Sam and Gollum.
Something good is genuinely wounded in Gollum when Frodo betrays him, yet it is impossible to say how Frodo could have done much differently. And they say Tolkien writes only in black and white! Here we have Frodo and Faramir--two of Tolkien's most unequivocally "good" characters--acting within laws and from honest motives, and yet the result is to break Gollum's faith. In some respects, Smeagol dies here, never again to have a hope of being ascendant. The thought occurred to me this reread that although it would have been a wicked deed to slay Gollum here with an unexpected arrow, *for Gollum* it might have been a better ending--or, to put it another way, he would have died a better person.
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#6 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,493
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That's a really interesting point, and something I never thoughr about. Gollum would have died at his highest point since finding the Ring. But there is a certain theme among LOTR's wrongdoers. Gollum should be slain by law and common sense; he is spared with Frodo's vouching for the hint of goodness in him, only to die later in an unrelated turn of events attributable to all sorts of reasons and quite possibly decreed by fate. Grima could have been executed for high treason; he was given mercy on account of his past honest service, but is killed far away by unrelated people for unrelated reasons. Saruman also falls in this category, but he is the one exception where the death closely follows the condemnation and is arguably linked; Frodo convinces the mob of angry hobbits that he should be pitied as a great one fallen low, and it is not the mob angry at his destruction of their world but an individual who has had enough personal contempt and mistreatment that does him in. In all cases the executions would not only have been lawful but also sensible and supported by the populance and not unjust. And in all cases the subject is given a pass because of faith in some past or hidden goodness - a sort of hope of it reawakening. But none of them rise to a nobler position than they were in - they only fall lower. It would probably have been a nobler death for Grima to be executed by Theoden in Edoras as the infamous spy than to be an emaciated miserable man shot down by people he feared and did not know. Perhaps nobler is not the right word, but he was certainly still higher in position, fame, respect and self-respect in Rohan than in Hobbitton.
I can think of one other person who was spared from lawful death: Beregond. Having spilled blood in the Silent Street he merited death by the law, but he was forgiven because his intentions were good. And he makes good of his chance: we do not see much of him, but presumably he just continues to be the Beregond we knew before in all that matters. If anything, he gained from the encounter - lost his job but got a better one, and the love and gratitude of his lord (and hero!) to go with it. There certainly are Numenorian patterns at play here: Denethor in his ruin turns to the tombs; Beregond, Faramir, and Aragorn all represent honouring death and history without being mentally enslaved by it. But what about this other pattern - what makes Beregond's second chance so different from the others? Is it that his intentions were good in the first place and they were taken into account? The comparison with Gollum seems to outline the relativity and context-dependance of the morality in LOTR. Gollum is oblivious to breaking law and doesn't actually do anyone any harm, while Beregond knows he is breaking old laws and he actually kills people, but it seems like in the end he gets much better treatment that Gollum does. Though maybe that's more because Beregond can see and appreciate the kindness he is given. Gollum can't understand Faramir's point of view at all so the exception making is wasted on him; Gollum only saw the bad treatment and not the worse treatment he was spared, so of course he thinks it was not fair. I am starting to ramble so I will stop here, but I wonder what others think of the spared evildoer theme.
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#7 | |
Dead Serious
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(Mind you, if their places were reversed, it seems likely enough that Faramir would have explicitly been their guide post-Parth Galen, and had they come to Ithilien and met Boromir, it would have been quite a different encounter... but maybe not for the best in the end. Who would have guided Frodo over the Ephel Duáth? Would Boromir, either getting the truth from Faramir OR meeting secrecy from his brother, have let them continue on?)
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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