LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 05 - The Window on the West

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Faramir... (the young hobbit who was giving him "sauce"!).

Actually, I just remembered something: Sam and Faramir were born in the same year. I realise that that has pretty much nothing to do with anything, but it is interesting, is it not, that Tolkien's two most "flesh-outed" characters (to use other people's terms, not mine) were born in the same year?

[davem]

Two quotes strike me as significant in the light of what we've been discussing re: Faramir & his attitude to the past. First is his words to Frodo about his desire to see a reestablshment of the Gondor of the past:

"For myself," said Faramir, "I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens

Second is Denethor's speech to Gandalf:

'What then would you have,' said Gandalf, 'if your will could have its way?'
'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.'

Both father & son have a desire to see things revert to the way they were in the past once the war is over. Both are conservative (note small 'c') & neither of them desires novelty. Of course, while Denethor wishes the status quo he (& his Longfathers) had known - ie the Rule of the Stewards - to continue, his son wishes to return to an earlier time, when there was a High King of Numenorean descent on the throne. But both share the Numenorean trait of valuing the past above the present, & certainly above the future - which only offers any possibility of hope to the degree that it can be made as much like the past as possible.

It makes me wonder how alike Denethor & Faramir really were - though I seem to remember Gandalf remarking that both men had inherited more of the blood of Numenor than Boromir had. In fact, as an aside, it does seem that Boromir was more 'forward looking than his father or his brother - didn't Boromir ask Denethor why the family remained 'merely' Stewards, & had not claimed the Kingship?

[Lathriel]

Maybe because Faramir and Denethor are so alike it is a reason why Denethor doesn't like his younger son. He might have seen too much of himself in Faramir.

A favourite part of this chapter is the description of the rangers hideout. It is the perfect place to stay when you don't want to be seen.

I would also like to add that I wouldn't mind living in Ithilien.(I peaceful times) It seems like such a wonderful place.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Actually, I just remembered something: Sam and Faramir were born in the same year. I realise that that has pretty much nothing to do with anything,

Except that it was a good vintage... and maybe it was deliberate (not from the outset but when Tolkien drew up the tale of years) to draw paralels between them.

[HerenIstarion]

... and running hard to catch up

Disclaimer first: I love Faramir. What to follow is not an essay in castin slurs upon him.

Now to one thing which struck me: Faramir is a bit of a play-actor and 'self-made man' (in a mental sense). He trains his mind as much as he supposedly trains his body, pursuing perfection. He tries on the mask of a better person, and lives up to the standard.

I refer to the following lines:

'But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway

The general impression: Faramir is, of course, boasting and showing off, but, also, setting himself another standard, another height to conquer. (Just as good he manages to conquer it when the Ring presents itself)

Denethor is not blind. What I rather would praise in Faramir, Denethor states as case for indictment:

I know you well. Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death

Emphasis mine

Now I run ahead of things a bit (or even a lot, since it is the next book where the quote is taken from), but that is an accussation to strike where it will hurt, it seems, a blame of 'appearing', but not, in fact 'being' is what Faramir would fear most.

We are alike with him in this respect, only I fail to live up to the standard more often than not (I refer to 'Masks' thread as well here)

Denethor loves his both sons. He's desparate to find someone else besides himself to blame for Boromir's death. I suppose it is fairly unconsious too. But this also for later discussion

cheers

[Lhunardawen]

'But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway

Not to downsize Faramir's integrity or anything, but I have a feeling Faramir said this to strengthen himself against temptation at that moment and have something to hold him back from being tempted once he knows what that Thing really is. In this sentence alone we see the power of words...and that Faramir is an inspiration in fighting temptation.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

(whether its a coincidence that Tolkien came up with the story of Numenor at the time of the rise of Fascism is another question)

An old, old thread, I know: but I just recently reread The Lost Road; and the creepy situation in Numenor described there (in 1936) is chillingly like Germany or the Soviet Union at the time- full of fear and forbidden opinions, of secret police and informers and knocks in the middle of the night.

[Formendacil]

One of the best passages in The Lord of the Rings is Sam's unwitting revelation of the Ring to Faramir. This chapter is all about Fararmir (and, by extension, about Gondor), and as Sam rightly notes, once Faramir knows the truth of the Ring, it is a chance for him to show his true colours, a test he passes just as Gandalf or Aragorn.

I read through this chapter a bit disjointedly, so I don't have a lot to say--though Faramir is the sort of character who provokes a lot of discussion and passion. I will say, though, that Henneth Annûn is probably the single most beautiful place in Book IV, one of the best in the whole trilogy--and perhaps just a bit dearer for having been left out of the movies.

[Inziladun]

In this chapter, the reader finds Faramir so different from his late brother, it might be hard to reconcile the kinship. Faramir exhibits the best of Númenor, while seeming to avoid its vice of pride.

One thing I find moving is the "standing silence" facing the West.