No Living Man

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Ah, I see. When he says "No living man may hinder me" it does sound like he interprets the prophecy as a statement about the capabilities of living men - so perhaps he misunderstands the metaphysics of the situation.

Is this an exact quote... Lemme check...


It is! Aha, then my little train of thought is not to be derailed by a movie-made line.

So, no living man may hinder him....

WRONG!!!

The Witch-king has a short memory. Aragorn did just that with a couple of firey sticks on Weathertop. In addition, I believe that one could mention more than a few examples in battle.

So, is this just a mis-statement of the prophecy, which was not worded such, or is it a bit more indicative of whether or not the prophecy was really vaild in the first place?

Was Glorfindel perhaps just saying that to get Earnur to calm down? To not go kill himself maybe? Perhaps he honestly thought that the Witch-king was too strong for any human?

Just a few thoughts to stir into the mix.

[the phantom]

Thanks for digging that quote up for me, Firefoot. Here it is again-

Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him.

You interpreted it like this-

It sounds to me like the WK feared Boromir not as a threat directly to himself, but as a threat to the forces of Mordor in general. After all, what's a leader without troops to command? The WK probably feared Boromir as a leader and captain of men, not as a threat to bodily harm to himself.

That may be correct, but perhaps it isn't. It said TWK "feared" him. If Boromir couldn't actually harm TWK, in other words all Boromir could do was lead his forces well, I don't think TWK would "fear" him. It seems like such a general way to use a strong word. It's more likely TWK would be annoyed by Boromir or hate Boromir.

Now, if it said "TWK feared what Boromir could accomplish" or "TWK feared that Boromir could severely hamper his plans" then I'd understand that because his fear is about Boromir doing non-personal damage to him, but since it simply says that "TWK feared him", it somehow makes me think it was personally as well as militarily.

I don't know... maybe I'm thinking too hard.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

Assuming that the Witch-king learned of Glorfindel's words, it appears from his words to Eowyn that he misinterpreted them to mean that he could not be killed by any man, whereas in fact they signified that he would not be killed by any man.

I'm just picking up on this, as it seems SpM is picking up on the idea of how words can be interpreted and then misapplied. I agree that the WK could have heard of Glorfindel's words. And while he could well have misapplied them to his eventual disadvantage, he could also in the intervening time have gained much from these words. If it was known that he was in some way 'invincible' then it can only have added to his reputation; in much the same way as terrorists depend upon the climate of fear, the WK could have gained much from the fear he caused in the hearts of Men. If you 'knew' that this figure was in some way untouchable then would you want to be the one who challenged him?

Originally Posted by the phantom

since it simply says that "TWK feared him", it somehow makes me think it was personally as well as militarily.

Perhaps, following on from what I've said above, it is that the WK knew that Boromir was unmoved by the fearsome reputation of the WK? If one of the WK's prime weapons is to foster fear and terror then all it takes is for one person to be unafraid for a chink to appear in that armour.

I wonder if Merry and Eowyn (and Frodo) knew anything of the WK's reputation? Surely they did. But if not, perhaps this may account for their lack of fear in confronting him. Certainly Gandalf is afraid of him, which might seem surprising, but then Gandalf must have known about his reputation more than most.

[HerenIstarion]

Being a man far from physics, I still got hold of several ideas, among which:

Observation does change the process observed.

What it has to do with prophecies:

Situation A Earnur tries to pursue Witch King, Glorfinded, judging from some data we are unaware of, warns him that 'man' can not kill him. It may be a prophecy/insight proper (like to opening of the window into another time and actually seeing 'how it happened/is going to happen'), it may be a wish to keep Earnur from foolish actions, it may be both. Glordfindel being what he is, his words are taken at face value and made somehow 'canon'. Start of the rumour: "Glorfindel said Witch King can not be killed by a man" (when all he actually said was 'Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall' which may mean a lot of things. What exactly 'doom' and 'fall' may mean to be dealt with some other time, or in some other thread )

Situation B Years pass, Witch King roams to and fro, is now and again challenged by 'living men' (Earnur included) who eventually all get killed not specifically because they are men but because Witch King is really hard to kill. The rumour grows the empirical bird - kind of confirmation of its 'truthfulness', conclusion drawn is as follows: 'See, Glorfindel said so, and indeed we see it happen - no man can kill him' (When all that happened was that noone yet killed him)

Situation C Witch King, who is aware of the situation, himself starts to believe the truth of the situation (BTW, on Wheathertop the truth of the statement was not tested - as we learn later on, wraiths withdrew of their own will, deeming their goal accomplished, waiting for Frodo to become a wraith himself). His belief also is confirmed all the time - he is not killed but kills himself

Situation D Belief on the part of Witch King mades him reckless - "I'm not going to be killed" motto makes him enter duels he would (probably) otherwise shy (encounter with Gandalf by the gate, per instance) away from or enter in with more caution. Such behavioral pattern ends him up headless - rushing in to be beheaded by a woman and a man (hobbits are men, whatever they themselves say)

Very elegant - Actually, Witch King is killed as a result of the prophecy made by Glorfindel . Or, back to physics - Glorfindel observing the future in fact conditiions it. (No knowing what would have happened if the prophecy haven't been made)

Conclusion: Witch King could have been killed by anyone of any race with enough guts and prowess to perform the act. His actual mode of death was at the same time a consequence of the prophecy and its confirmation.

(The situation is reminiscent to Sci-Fi 'Time-Loop Problem', when hero is sent on some mission into the future by himself returned from said future (Lem's Star Diaries, per instance, Diary #20), and it is inexplicable how the 'latter one' of himself who came back got into the future in the first place, and where (or when, rather) got he at the moment of becoming 'earlier' one, the one who was left behind when the former 'earlier' one become 'latter' one by traveling into the future in his stead. Stumbling sentences, I know, I've got lost myself)

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Just how tough is it to kill a Nazgul?

"The Winged Messenger!" cried Legolas. "I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?" "One that you cannot slay with arrows," said Gandalf

Big question mark there... A Nazgul will not die even if Merry and Eorwyn stick him full of arrows. But...

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

Only with a Westerness sword (not elven by the way) wielded by a midget, can a Nazgul be killed. The point is not even whether Glorfindel's prophesy would come true: the point is there has to be a method to killing a Nazgul. The Witchking is chief among the Nazgul, and as so counted among their numbers.

Considering the fact that the Ringwraiths could not be drowned, the number of ways to slaughter one of them seems pretty limited... One can argue that if the Westerness made those swords that are powerful enough to gut a Nazgul, they won't have fallen in the first place. Of course, they don't have hobbits then, but if hobbits are just midget men, then I can see pretty much no reason why someone didn't just come along a thrust a Westerness dagger at the WK.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

. . . I can see pretty much no reason why someone didn't just come along a thrust a Westerness dagger at the WK. (HCNHobbit--sorry for the abbreviation )

Nobody could come close enough.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

See, now ... the Witch-King was the one who thought no living man could kill him, Glorfindel's prophecy has nothing to do with that.

It's not like the W-K actually heard Glorfindel say that. He probably didn't. He just assumed he was immortal in every way, not just prolonged, wraithy life.

And he assumed wrong.

Meanwhile, Glorfindel's prophecy remains true, but has nothing to do with the quote "No living man may hinder me."

[Lhunardawen]

In light of this discussion, I saw this in The Siege of Gondor:

The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.

In this situation, Gandalf did hinder WK, but there seems to be a rematch in sight because of the word yet. But they never meet again, as we see later on in the story. Can we then say that Gandalf has successfully hindered WK as opposed to WK's later claims as he conversed with Eowyn? After all, Gandalf here is not a man...or is he?

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Nobody could come close enough. - Nilpaurion Felagund

That was an understatement: The Westerness swords that the hobbits got were actually daggers found by Ol' Tom the Merry Fellow at the Barrowdowns:

For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold.

But back to the question of the entire thread, I doubt there are really any other way that the Witchking can be killed, let alone the other eight. Elves were said to have power over things both seen and unseen (See Chapter: Many Meetings), and are thus unafraid to contest the Ringwraiths. But if we are to go into the exact method of how an Elf (say Elrond or Glorfindel) can bring about the demise of the Witchking, we are most likely to be talking about a contest of will-power... hardly of physics. So in that sense, it is pointless to go through the mechanics of how the old ghouls could "die" as long as it dies.

Taken in that sense, anyone with the will-power to spear a Nazgul in the eye can kill it. It is uber-strange however, that nobody have the will-power to kill or even maim one of them for nearly an entire age. We were told of course that the Nazgul are afraid of fire, even though Sauron likes to use it.

Strider laid his hand on his shoulder. 'There is still hope,' he said. 'You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defence here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.'

But Gandalf, who is supposed to be a powerhouse of will-power can't even beat them at Weathertop, and presumably with fire:

"Perhaps," said Strider. "For myself, I believe that he was here, and was in danger. There have been scorching flames here; and now the light that we saw three nights ago in the eastern sky comes back to my mind. I guess that he was attacked on this hill-top, but with what result I cannot tell. He is here no longer, and we must now look after ourselves and make our own way to Rivendell, as best as we can."

Granted that Gandalf was tired and outnumbered one to nine, we are still left with the conclusion that the Ringwraiths were completely unscathed for their next uncounter with Aragorn and the hobbits. Big question as to how powerful Gandalf was in comparison with a Dunedain and his halfling cronies... Besides, I am still left speechless with the notion of girl-cum-hobbit willpower combined to "fall" the old geezer of a Nazgul...