Luthien: Maia or Elf.

[Formendacil]

Excellent points all, Heren_Istarion, but I feel it necessary to point out that I wasn't necessarily comparing Galadriel and, or saying that Elrond was the greater. Galadriel is, after all, accorded near-Feanor status near the end of Tolkien's life, and is certainly Elrond' peer. On the flip side, Elrond has his own areas of talent that seem to eclipse Galadriel: healing and lore in particular (as well as Maiar blood).

What I was arguing was not so much that Elrond was the equal of Galadriel, but that the later Elves were the equals of the earlier Elves (in middle-earth. Valinor fits only unfairly into the equation). As I was saying, there were exceptions to this rule (Gondolin is quite clearly the greatest Elven kingdom ever in middle-earth, and Doriath's possession of a Maia queen is unfair for defensive comparisoms), but in general, I think that the average 2nd/3rd Age Elf was pretty much the equal of the 1st Age Elf, that the inherent power in each Elf was NOT diminished over the generations, although perhaps the amount of progeny did.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What I was arguing was not so much that Elrond was the equal of Galadriel, but that the later Elves were the equals of the earlier Elves (in middle-earth. Valinor fits only unfairly into the equation). As I was saying, there were exceptions to this rule (Gondolin is quite clearly the greatest Elven kingdom ever in middle-earth, and Doriath's possession of a Maia queen is unfair for defensive comparisoms), but in general, I think that the average 2nd/3rd Age Elf was pretty much the equal of the 1st Age Elf, that the inherent power in each Elf was NOT diminished over the generations, although perhaps the amount of progeny did.

In seeking out a quote of Tolkien's for another thread I came across this. Its from Verlyn Flieger's book A Question of Time:

"In Elvish sentiment the 'future' was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though inevitably it lay 'ahead', as of one on a journey, "looking forward" did not implyanticipation of delight. "I look forward to seeing you again" did not mean or imply "I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/& or very likely, I am pleased". It meant simply "I expect to see you againwith the certainty of foresight(in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dislike, 'foreboding'" Their position , as of latter day sentiment was of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual position ever looking backwards".

Flieger interprets -

"Tolkien's Elves, who, facing toward their past, are 'backed' into the future by those who follow. Men are 'proceeding' into the future, while Elves are 'receeding' into it."

Now, while this doesn't speak to any 'objective facts' about the power of Second/Third Age Elves in Middle earth as opposed to their First Age counterparts, it does speak to their own feelings about & assessment of themselves. Clearly the Elves of later Ages felt that they were 'lesser' beings, being 'driven' forward in time, away from the time& place of their true greatness.

Certainly the Elves of the Third Age look back with regret to the earlier ages, but then that was always a tendency of Elves almost from the beginning. The past was always better for them, change is always & inevitably change for the worse. Even at the end of the Third Age when they are leaving Middle earth they speak not so much of going to the West as of going back. They are stepping out of Men's way, so that they no longer hold them back, but also so that they themselves are no longer pushed forward (in Time) & away from not only where they desire to be (the 'perfect', if idealised, past), but away also from what they had been.

As I said, this doesn't mean that the Elves of the later Ages were lesser beings than their ancestors, but it does imply that they believed they were. I think this was inevitable, given their tendency to seek to 'preserve' (or 'embalm' to use Tolkien's term) as much of what they had, & to recreate as much as they could of what they had lost. So, even if Gil-Galad was as great as some of his predecessors, I doubt very much he would have believed it himself.

So, would this 'self-doubt', this sense of their being 'lesser children of greater sires' which seems to be the mindset of the Elves of LotR, have affected them in any way? Would it have lead them to doubt themselves to such an extent that they didn't actually achieve what they could have done - did it have the effect of 'depressing' their will & strength, their innate 'power'? Certainly on my first reading of LotR I did wonder why these 'superbeings' didn't get more involved. Maybe for all their 'equality' in power (if they were equal) with their ancestors they were less powerful in practical terms, because they just didn't believe in themselves...