Gandalf Vs. The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

narfforc · 03-25-2005, 10:36 AM

In Unfinished Tales (The Istari) I found the following sentences to be quite interesting: To the overthrow of Morgoth he (Manwe) sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf. Eonwe is considered to be mightier than Sauron, but his might is in arms. The Valar did not want another devasting war, so they sent back the Wise, So from the very beginning there was never going to be direct confrontation. Gandalf was sent to move peoples hearts and minds, that is exactly why the war was won, by outhinking Sauron.

We know that Gandalf was a Maia diminished, yet we are never told how much so. By clothing themselves (The Istari) in the flesh of Arda they are subject to the dimming of their knowledge and wisdom, and are confused by fears, cares and the weariness that come from that flesh. they are also told that they must forgo might. Yet in saying all this, Gandalf the Grey has been enhanced twice, firstly by the giving of Narya by Cirdan, and secondly by his elevation to Gandalf the White and being sent back with greater sanctity. Holding one of the Elven Rings of Power must account for something or it becomes a worthless piece of metal, and being sent back by The Valar with more power speaks for itself. So we come to Sauron, this incarnation (Third Age) is not the Sauron of old, he also is diminished by the fact that he passed a great deal of his power into The One Ring, something he no longer holds. This is why destroying it is so important, for if he recaims it, he also reclaims his lost power. We can only speculate as to the outcome of any meeting between these two Maia at the end of The Third Age, but I feel it would not be as one-sided as many think. First Age Sauron was deafeated by Luthien, a Half-Maia. So we are given the image of Gandalf the White as a very great power, how could the shade of a mortal hope to win that contest, it is not possible. The Witch-King is the High Nazgul, the Ringwraiths main weapons are fear (lets not think of The Spanish Inquisition), and the effect of that is lessened on those of strong heart and mind ala Gandalf and Aragorn on Weathertop. The thing that sets The Morgul Lord apart is that he is a sorcerer, yet this magic has its source in his being, and that was mortal, so it is of less power than even one of the Silvan Elves, had they have had the same knowledge.
We are told that Sauron had given The Lord of the Nazgul more power, yet this has to come from somewhere, if so then it came from Saurons already lessened being, therefore it cannot be as great has the power that The Valar has given back to Gandalf. So to have The Lord of the Nazgul break Gandalfs staff is ridiculous. The excuse that it was for the non-reading cinema public cannot be used, for it was not in the theatre version, it is only in the Extended version, I cannot believe that Jackson put this in for the benefit of us true fans, so what motivated him to think he could better the works of Tolkien.

NOOOOOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION.

Guinevere · 03-25-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

first posted by Nafforc:
I cannot believe that Jackson put this in for the benefit of us true fans, so what motivated him to think he could better the works of Tolkien.

I don't think PJ thought or even knew so much about all these things you all write about! He probably looked at it from quite a different point of view. After all he isn't a Tolkien scholar, but a moviemaker. Consider what he said at one place in the commentaries to RotK:

Quote:

" my memory is just so muddy about all this stuff because I hadn't obviously picked up the book and actually read the book for years I only read little bits and pieces of it. Just reading sections of it, you loose the experience of the book as a whole..."

alatar · 03-25-2005, 01:42 PM

Nice post, narfforc.

However, as Essex would say, there are examples throughout Tolkien's world where a being that is ontologically 'lower' defeats/hampers/fights a being that is higher in the scheme of things. Here are a few that I could easily cite:

- Morgoth vs Luthien/Beren
- Sauron vs Luthien
- Morgoth vs Fingolfin
- Glaurung vs Dwarves
- Smaug vs Bard
- Gothmog (Lord of Balrogs) vs Ecthelion of the Fountain
- Balrog vs Gandalf Diminished
- King Nazgul vs Eowyn
- Troll vs Pippin

Not that PJ cares...

narfforc · 03-26-2005, 03:16 AM

Point taken Alatar, But we din`t want to see Gandalf humiliated did we. And Guinivere, PJ made great claims as to being a fan of Tolkien, I think we now see that he meant that he had read LotR a couple of times.

03-25-2005, 10:36 AM	#1
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	In Unfinished Tales (The Istari) I found the following sentences to be quite interesting: To the overthrow of Morgoth he (Manwe) sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf. Eonwe is considered to be mightier than Sauron, but his might is in arms. The Valar did not want another devasting war, so they sent back the Wise, So from the very beginning there was never going to be direct confrontation. Gandalf was sent to move peoples hearts and minds, that is exactly why the war was won, by outhinking Sauron. We know that Gandalf was a Maia diminished, yet we are never told how much so. By clothing themselves (The Istari) in the flesh of Arda they are subject to the dimming of their knowledge and wisdom, and are confused by fears, cares and the weariness that come from that flesh. they are also told that they must forgo might. Yet in saying all this, Gandalf the Grey has been enhanced twice, firstly by the giving of Narya by Cirdan, and secondly by his elevation to Gandalf the White and being sent back with greater sanctity. Holding one of the Elven Rings of Power must account for something or it becomes a worthless piece of metal, and being sent back by The Valar with more power speaks for itself. So we come to Sauron, this incarnation (Third Age) is not the Sauron of old, he also is diminished by the fact that he passed a great deal of his power into The One Ring, something he no longer holds. This is why destroying it is so important, for if he recaims it, he also reclaims his lost power. We can only speculate as to the outcome of any meeting between these two Maia at the end of The Third Age, but I feel it would not be as one-sided as many think. First Age Sauron was deafeated by Luthien, a Half-Maia. So we are given the image of Gandalf the White as a very great power, how could the shade of a mortal hope to win that contest, it is not possible. The Witch-King is the High Nazgul, the Ringwraiths main weapons are fear (lets not think of The Spanish Inquisition), and the effect of that is lessened on those of strong heart and mind ala Gandalf and Aragorn on Weathertop. The thing that sets The Morgul Lord apart is that he is a sorcerer, yet this magic has its source in his being, and that was mortal, so it is of less power than even one of the Silvan Elves, had they have had the same knowledge. We are told that Sauron had given The Lord of the Nazgul more power, yet this has to come from somewhere, if so then it came from Saurons already lessened being, therefore it cannot be as great has the power that The Valar has given back to Gandalf. So to have The Lord of the Nazgul break Gandalfs staff is ridiculous. The excuse that it was for the non-reading cinema public cannot be used, for it was not in the theatre version, it is only in the Extended version, I cannot believe that Jackson put this in for the benefit of us true fans, so what motivated him to think he could better the works of Tolkien. NOOOOOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION. Last edited by narfforc; 03-25-2005 at 11:51 AM.

03-26-2005, 03:16 AM	#4
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Point taken Alatar, But we din`t want to see Gandalf humiliated did we. And Guinivere, PJ made great claims as to being a fan of Tolkien, I think we now see that he meant that he had read LotR a couple of times. Last edited by narfforc; 03-26-2005 at 03:20 AM.

03-25-2005, 01:42 PM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Nice post, narfforc. However, as Essex would say, there are examples throughout Tolkien's world where a being that is ontologically 'lower' defeats/hampers/fights a being that is higher in the scheme of things. Here are a few that I could easily cite: - Morgoth vs Luthien/Beren - Sauron vs Luthien - Morgoth vs Fingolfin - Glaurung vs Dwarves - Smaug vs Bard - Gothmog (Lord of Balrogs) vs Ecthelion of the Fountain - Balrog vs Gandalf Diminished - King Nazgul vs Eowyn - Troll vs Pippin Not that PJ cares...