tactical discussion, countering balrogs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Celebaglar · 03-24-2005, 04:47 PM

Why would gandalf call Durin's Bane "Flame of Udun" when Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun?

obloquy · 03-24-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celebaglar

Why would gandalf call Durin's Bane "Flame of Udun" when Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun?

He wouldn't have, if what you say is true. It's not though. Balrogs had plenty to do with Udun (Utumno).

Celebaglar · 03-24-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

He wouldn't have, if what you say is true. It's not though. Balrogs had plenty to do with Udun (Utumno).

[from the FOTR]"You cannot pass" he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a wielder of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. Dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You can not pass."

Please sir, I am not ignorant. If you need proof of Gandalf saying this, it is in the chapter "the bridge of khazad-dum".

And what does the balrog have to do with Udun?

obloquy · 03-24-2005, 08:18 PM

I didn't say Gandalf didn't say it, I said that if what you say is true ("Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun"), he wouldn't have said what he said. As you've unnecessarily proven, however, Gandalf did say that. Therefore your claim that Balrogs had little to do with Udun is incorrect.

Gurthang · 03-25-2005, 02:21 PM

I agree with Celebaglar on this one. Udun was the land between the Black Gate and the Plateau of Gorgoroth. The balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not Sauron, and likely would never have gone to Mordor for any reason. Even besides that, Durin's Bane had been asleep in Moria long before Sauron set up his stronghold within Mordor. So what would the Balrog have to do with Udun?

(Just to clarify: I'm not saying that it doesn't have anything to do with Udun, I just don't see any reasonable reason that it would.)

obloquy · 03-25-2005, 02:27 PM

Udun is Sindarin for the Quenya word Utumno, which was the name of Morgoth's original subterranean stronghold.

Gurthang · 03-25-2005, 02:33 PM

Well, there's that reasonable reason I was looking for. Thanks a bunch, obloquy!

Oh yes, one thing I would certainly do if confronting a Balrog: Ask him if he had wings or not, just so I'd know before I died.

03-25-2005, 02:21 PM	#5
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	I agree with Celebaglar on this one. Udun was the land between the Black Gate and the Plateau of Gorgoroth. The balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not Sauron, and likely would never have gone to Mordor for any reason. Even besides that, Durin's Bane had been asleep in Moria long before Sauron set up his stronghold within Mordor. So what would the Balrog have to do with Udun? (Just to clarify: I'm not saying that it doesn't have anything to do with Udun, I just don't see any reasonable reason that it would.) __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

03-25-2005, 02:33 PM	#7
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Well, there's that reasonable reason I was looking for. Thanks a bunch, obloquy! Oh yes, one thing I would certainly do if confronting a Balrog: Ask him if he had wings or not, just so I'd know before I died. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

03-24-2005, 04:47 PM	#1
Celebaglar Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Among the host of the noldor, and the last high elves that dwell in middle eath Posts: 31	Why would gandalf call Durin's Bane "Flame of Udun" when Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun?

03-24-2005, 08:18 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	I didn't say Gandalf didn't say it, I said that if what you say is true ("Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun"), he wouldn't have said what he said. As you've unnecessarily proven, however, Gandalf did say that. Therefore your claim that Balrogs had little to do with Udun is incorrect.

03-25-2005, 02:27 PM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Udun is Sindarin for the Quenya word Utumno, which was the name of Morgoth's original subterranean stronghold.