gandalf as a maia - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

drigel · 03-23-2005, 08:23 AM

Interesting Galadriel thesis going on here. But, didnt Olorin "pass unseen" amongst the elves? Were the elves aware of his presence? I do think that I am adhering to the idea that Galadriel and her ilk (those who were Eldar or had come from the west) would have the ability to sense a soul that had "come from Aman", as it were.

But, if they actually knew they were Maia, more reverence would be shown to them, to the detriment of the original mission of the Istari. Galadriel would be less uppity towards Saurman at the White Council debates too, which would have profound effects on their strategy.

As for the average ME inhabitant, (IMO) Wizards were just another critter in the park. It would depend on ones experience/travels. The average man indeed would consider him an elf of somekind, because he/she would relate the fact that the wizard never expiring with the fair folk, or what they understood about them anyways. By the TA, men would have had more exposure to wizards than elves. For hobbits, wizards were wizards, but the attribute of never dying would not particularly be associated with elves. They had their Tom Bombadils, Goldberrys, Old Man Willows, etc.

Tuor of Gondolin · 03-23-2005, 11:57 AM

It rather stretches credulity to suggest that Aragorn didn't
know about Gandalf, not only was he head of the Dunedain
and raised as Elrond's foster son, but his fiances' grandma
was on friendly terms with Aragorn.
And Faramir had similar reasons to know of Gandalf's origins,
both from being "a wizard's pupil" and his daddy's
ability to have insights. And surely Faramir would have
discussed Gandalf with his admired older brother.

dwarfguard · 03-23-2005, 02:42 PM

does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?I mean, if she suspected anything, she might be afraid of the wrath of the valar and maybe she thought the wizards might be there to persecute her for leaving valinor?Or maybe she sensed his mission and kept silent for the fellowships sake?

Anguirel · 03-23-2005, 03:25 PM

With all due respect, drigel and dwarfguard , I think you're rather underestimating Galadriel. In whatever version of her story you believe, she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself. (Galadriel, Feanor and Saruman are awfully similar. Like repels like.) Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway.

Galadriel can't be messed with. She's not just great in Third Age terms; she's in the big three of greatest Elves ever (Feanor, Galadriel and the incongruous Luthien). She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power. If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia. And if she identified Olorin, she'd keep his secret only if she felt inclined to (and she would have done).

Good point about passing unseen, though. Slightly scuttles my ideas.

dwarfguard · 03-23-2005, 06:16 PM

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

obloquy · 03-23-2005, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfguard

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

Not quite. We're not talking about Dragon Ball Z. "Power levels" are a pretty complicated thing in Tolkien's work. Galadriel would not have had anything to fear from Saruman personally, I daresay, just as Gandalf did not. "Stronger than any elf" may not be entirely accurate, either, as Tolkien said that some Elves were elevated to such a degree of mightiness as to approach the spiritual puissance of the Maiar. I believe this was written in reference to Glorfindel, and could obviously also apply to those considered "greater" than he.

Boromir88 · 03-23-2005, 07:16 PM

If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog....

drigel · 03-23-2005, 07:43 PM

If you look at my posts, I am a Galadriel defender myself. And I do love a good debate, so I will be the devils advocate on this one, just because I am still interested. As long as its based on good natured, canon adhering ideas, I do like to throw it around some. Makes me think and learn

Quote:

does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?

She was as wise as she was a great elf. IMO, (kind of aggreeing with DGuard) if she did anything, she confided to him -in private communication (either verbally or non-verbally). Im sure Gandalf did as well.

Quote:

she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself

Pride and the desire to rule says a lot about her strength of spirit, yes. Her, and about 35,000 other Noldor defied the Valar...... so that says what about her personal physical attributes??

Quote:

Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway.

ummm not sure what the point is here. Too many contradictions. I would say here that disdain is different than "calling him out" and identifying him as Sauron Gauthar. She is neither omnipresent nor is she omnipotent.

Quote:

She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power

LOVE that. Awsome. Except for the unlimited part..

Quote:

If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia.

She is accounted, of all the Eldar, one of the most powerfull, noble and wise. If it was an athletic contest, the smart money would be on G. But, she is an elf, not a comic book hero. She spent the majoritiy of her time in ME ruling, not personally fighting. As for the Maia deal, I would think that Saruman might be hampered due to the fact that he had to assume the physical embodiment that the Istari were confined to, but cmon dude - GvsS is to me like GvsBalrog. I would hope for the best, but my heart would tell me that she would not be long for this world. All a matter of opinion I guess....

03-23-2005, 08:23 AM	#1
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Manwe was on to something..... Interesting Galadriel thesis going on here. But, didnt Olorin "pass unseen" amongst the elves? Were the elves aware of his presence? I do think that I am adhering to the idea that Galadriel and her ilk (those who were Eldar or had come from the west) would have the ability to sense a soul that had "come from Aman", as it were. But, if they actually knew they were Maia, more reverence would be shown to them, to the detriment of the original mission of the Istari. Galadriel would be less uppity towards Saurman at the White Council debates too, which would have profound effects on their strategy. As for the average ME inhabitant, (IMO) Wizards were just another critter in the park. It would depend on ones experience/travels. The average man indeed would consider him an elf of somekind, because he/she would relate the fact that the wizard never expiring with the fair folk, or what they understood about them anyways. By the TA, men would have had more exposure to wizards than elves. For hobbits, wizards were wizards, but the attribute of never dying would not particularly be associated with elves. They had their Tom Bombadils, Goldberrys, Old Man Willows, etc. Last edited by drigel; 03-23-2005 at 04:20 PM.

03-23-2005, 11:57 AM	#2
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	It rather stretches credulity to suggest that Aragorn didn't know about Gandalf, not only was he head of the Dunedain and raised as Elrond's foster son, but his fiances' grandma was on friendly terms with Aragorn. And Faramir had similar reasons to know of Gandalf's origins, both from being "a wizard's pupil" and his daddy's ability to have insights. And surely Faramir would have discussed Gandalf with his admired older brother. __________________ Aure Entuluva!

03-23-2005, 03:25 PM	#4
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Galadriel ain't no groveller! With all due respect, drigel and dwarfguard , I think you're rather underestimating Galadriel. In whatever version of her story you believe, she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself. (Galadriel, Feanor and Saruman are awfully similar. Like repels like.) Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway. Galadriel can't be messed with. She's not just great in Third Age terms; she's in the big three of greatest Elves ever (Feanor, Galadriel and the incongruous Luthien). She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power. If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia. And if she identified Olorin, she'd keep his secret only if she felt inclined to (and she would have done). Good point about passing unseen, though. Slightly scuttles my ideas. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

03-23-2005, 07:16 PM	#7
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog.... __________________ Fenris Penguin

03-23-2005, 02:42 PM	#3
dwarfguard Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17	does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?I mean, if she suspected anything, she might be afraid of the wrath of the valar and maybe she thought the wizards might be there to persecute her for leaving valinor?Or maybe she sensed his mission and kept silent for the fellowships sake?

03-23-2005, 06:16 PM	#5
dwarfguard Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17	i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.