LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 04 - Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

[davem]

Originally Posted by B88

Nice point, and I'm glad you brought it up because I don't think I got my previous post across well. I didn't mean to come across as Damrod and Mablung being mean, but simply biased, and possibly not understanding the situation the Southrons faced. I could certainly understand their despise for the Southrons, after all, they joined the Enemy that is planning to take away any good left in the world (you've already pointed out Ithilien would be a place worth fighting for, worth saving). I was trying to get across that their view of the Southrons was opinionated since they disliked them, where Sam presents a more neutral, sympathetic look towards them.

I wasn't criticising your point - which I think was well made. My post was a kind of stream of consciousness thing, just writing what came to me, & was mostly doen before reading your post. I think you make an important point re Sam as a kind of objective observer of the situation, confronting the facts of war for the first time - possibly reflecting Tolkien's own emotions as a young Subaltern coming face to face with the realities of war for the first time. I think Sam's viewpoint may come as a shock to some & as out of place to others. He is showing empathy toward the 'enemy', seeing them as human beings - which is so easy to forget, particularly with the kind of mass media we have today.

I don't think this scene is in the book because Tolkien was a pacifist, & wanted to make out that all war is evil & morally wrong. My understanding is that Tolkien felt that, human nature being what it is, war is most likely inevitable. But he was a man who had seen war first hand & knew what it involved. Perhaps this is one of the things that keeps drawing us back to LotR - for all that its marketed as a 'fantasy' story it confronts us with some pretty harsh facts: like, for instance, while sometimes war is unavoidable (because some things are so precious they have to be preserved & other things so Wrong that they have to be stopped), at the same time war is ugly & real human beings will be hurt, maimed & killed as a consequence. We can't use that fact to avoid our responsibilities & let the Hitlers & Stalins have a free hand, but at the same time we can't dehumanise the 'enemy' to such an extent that we refuse to see that they are human beings like ourselves, with hopes, fears & dreams - just like ourselves....

[Mithalwen]

What struck me particularly from the description of Ithilien, on rereading it yesterday was how medditerranean it sounds. And having also reread the biography yesterday, I don't think he had visited that area at this point ( though I could be mistaken). I know he visited Venice AFTER LOTR was published and he thought it was like his idea of Old Gondor/ Pelargir. If I am right it is amazing how evocative this description is especially given that this was effectively pre-television and even colour film was fairly poor quality.

If this scenery is evoked by no more than thorough research in to the flora of an area then it is remarkable - especially since it is such a loving description of a landscape, fairly different to the typical English "patchwork quilt" of field, wood and hedgerow which always seems so close to Tolkien's heart. More I would say but it will have to wait.

[Lathriel]

I like the moment when Sam thinks about the dead warrior he sees.

He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace--all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.

These questions probably also came to Tolkien's mind while he was in WWI. But in general these questions are the ones we don't want to think about too much. Therefore it is good that they are mentioned since often people like to think of the opposing side as just plain evil.

Overall I love this part of Frodo and Sam's journey. When I first read the book I loved this part because it was unsuspected. The last thing I expected was for Frodo to find friends here.Let alone Boromir's brother.
When re-reading it I like this part because its tone is so different from the darkness that Frodo and Sam have gone through and still have to go through.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Not to open a can of worms, but this chapter seems to cry out for the discussion of Tolkien and race. I don't have access to his letters, but many on this board do, so maybe some of you can shed some light on this discussion.

The simple facts of the matter are that all the "good guys" in LotR are white, and the "bad guys" are largely black/asian (those that aren't orcs, of course).

I know that the way he had ME set up the northwestern part of the continent was the closest to Valinor and therefore had the most access to elves/divine influence. The south and east (blacks/asians) were under the sway of Sauron simply by accident of their location.

This racial situation has been decried by some pundits, and contemporary fantasy is still often very anglo-centric (thought not necessarily in emulation of Tolkien)

So, any thoughts? Any illumination from the good Professor's letters on this subject? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We have had several discussions on Tolkien and racism in the past. I used the search to find threads on the topic and came up with these, among others:

Racism in LotR?
Racism and Tolkien
Lord of the Rings labelled racist
Can the book be considered racist?
Are Tolkien books racist?

I would suggest that general thoughts on the subject be posted on one of those threads and that only those that pertain directly to this chapter be posted here.

[Mithalwen]

It is easy to draw these parralels but since this is not the place for full discussion, I would say that 50 years on our minds are tuned to different wavelengths - we are far more sensitive to these things now. In short, I think the discriptions here are essentially a coincidence of geography ( as he has taken care to give ithilien appropriate flora so he gives the people of the south and east appropriate characteristics) and serve to highlight how strange and exotic the swertings are to the hobbits. I see little rascism in the thoughts of Sam quothed by Lathriel. Despite the superficial differences; the similarities, the common humanity is clearly recognised.

The fact that this is a battleof Men against Men is interesting to me, because of the problems posed by the nature of orcs. I can't be scientific about this but I get the impression that Tolkien is much more frugal about killing men - they tend to flee in terror rather thanbe slaughtered wholesale like the orcs (the implication that the orcs ARE irredeemably bad) but that too is an issue for other threads I guess.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What struck me particularly from the description of Ithilien, on rereading it yesterday was how medditerranean it sounds. And having also reread the biography yesterday, I don't think he had visited that area at this point ( though I could be mistaken). I know he visited Venice AFTER LOTR was published and he thought it was like his idea of Old Gondor/ Pelargir. If I am right it is amazing how evocative this description is especially given that this was effectively pre-television and even colour film was fairly poor quality.

If this scenery is evoked by no more than thorough research in to the flora of an area then it is remarkable - especially since it is such a loving description of a landscape, fairly different to the typical English "patchwork quilt" of field, wood and hedgerow which always seems so close to Tolkien's heart. More I would say but it will have to wait.

Mithalwen's comments offer me a way into a thought that has struck me as I have been reading Book Four, but especially in this chapter with melancoly condition of Ithilien, land once beautiful but now being desecrated. I am wondering how much of the geographical description really arises from Tolkien's well-known love of the countryside and how much it is a narrative necessity at this point of the plot. Does Tolkien lavish so much attention to the land because of his love or because the plot leaves him with little else to work with?

Think for a moment. The three must travel unseen, by stealth. They thus have no opposition to overcome, no direct confrontations. Or at least, there must be few and far between. Many sightings of orcs is possible, and of the Nazgul, but there cannot be actual contact or fighting, for that would destroy the secrecy which the plot demands. So, not much chance for lots of battle set up and description when the prime motivation is avoidance of contact.

The second possibility for action lies in the interaction between the three characters. We have some of this, definitely, but how to extend this over ten chapters? Again, something else is needed. And not just constant discussion of foraging.

That something else, it seems to me, has to be the extensive description of the terrain. The land becomes the formidable opponent, but it also provides a way to develop this part of the story. Ithilien provides the perfect place for such lovingly detailed passages as well because of it history. That history also provides the opportune place for one of the rare encounters, by those who still struggle to preserve the place, against the encroachments of the Enemy. Again, it cannot be Frodo and Sam and Gollem who engage with opponents, for they must remain hidden. Sooner or later, Tolkien had to bring in a new batch of good guys to do the fighting for them.

So, all that tamarisk and terebinth, the olives and the bay, the juniper, the saxifrage and stonecrop is simply and plainly a plot device.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

So, all that tamarisk and terebinth, the olives and the bay, the juniper, the saxifrage and stonecrop is simply and plainly a plot device.

The harshness of the landscape in Chapters 1 to 3, and the enormity of it which the Hobbits must overcome, also serves to underline just how little they are, both physically and metaphorically. They not only struggle with the logistics of getting down cliff faces but they are plunged, effectively alone, into an old and vast landscape, one which is treacherous and full of terror, as seen in the Dead Marshes. Here they are just two Hobbits trying to pick their way across the remains of an ancient battlefield, small and insignificant in comparison to what went before. We know what they carry, and just how important their mission is and therefore how far they really are from being insignificant, but the enormity of the landscape serves to remind us how vulnerable they are.

They followed a stream that went quickly down before them. Presently it brought them to a small clear lake in a shallow dell: it lay in the broken ruins of an ancient stone basin, the carven rim of which was almost wholly covered with mosses and rose-brambles; iris-swords stood in ranks about it, and water-lily leaves floated on its dark, gently rippling surface; but it was deep and fresh, and spilled ever softly out over a stony lip at the far end.

This passage shows us how at one time, this area must have been populated, that it even had such frivolous things as gardens with water features. Yet just as we are feeling safe and that the Hobbits are in a benevolent part of Middle Earth, Sam finds the Orcs' fire and we are not only reminded of the ever present peril they are in, but we get another reminder of how Sauron's servants have despoiled a beautiful place.

[Mithalwen]

Oh BB, I thought the cynical "it's just a plot device" line was my speciality! Where is the romance? :P But at one level, I do agree that these chapters are thin on action and the CbC is a good way of making me look closer at chapters which despite my abiding love for Faramir, I generally skim through and which proved my nemesis on my first reading ( Like the child of Sam and Frodo's imagining, at 10, I found the fringes of Mordor too dark and didn't want to read anymore, and I had forgotten the intricacies of the other plot by the time it came to rejoin Gandalf and Pippin ).

That said, I do think Ithilien has more significance. Much of it of course, linked to Faramir, one of the characters who emerged from the story rather than as a conscious act of will on the part of Tolkien. There are paralels with the hobbit's meeting with Aragorn, chief of the Rangers of the North. Faramir, captain of the rangers of the south wears a literal mask but is soon removed. He is gold which does glister.... he is a soldier and a loremaster, scion of the noblest houses in the realm (Stewards and Dol Amroth), a man in whom the blood of Numenor runs true after years of degeneration. Also he is walking, disguied in the land which he will one day rule. However whereas with Aragorn, it is Frodo whos has to make the leap of faith to let him join them, here Faramir has to make the choice ot let Frodo go.

Unsurprisingly there is more I would say of Faramir - but I think it belongs in the next chapter.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yet just as we are feeling safe and that the Hobbits are in a benevolent part of Middle Earth, Sam finds the Orcs' fire and we are not only reminded of the ever present peril they are in, but we get another reminder of how Sauron's servants have despoiled a beautiful place.

Interestingly enough, this passage you refer to always makes me think about camping- and littering.

The actions of the Orks seem highly reminiscent of so many people's attitudes and actions towards the environment: a great big playground/trashcan for their own personal enjoyment.

It's well known that Tolkien read Orkish attitude in a great deal of modern society, particularly in the area of machines and technology. Have we got another example of modern Orkishness here?

Actually, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are following the Ork trail, I am struck in much the same way.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You know, after reading Boromir88's and davem's points about Sam and his musing over the fallen Southron, it occurred to me that perhaps Sam sympathized in part because he saw himself (and Frodo and Gollum, for that matter) as though they were reluctant invaders themselves. Seeing how the Rangers felt about the crew marching north to help attack Gondor, perhaps Sam wondered if he might somehow be viewed similarly.

Regarding this most recent mention of Frodo’s more peaceful sleep as well as Sam’s pity, I would bring forward again a quote from the preceding chapter. I think it is important to this discussion and not all of us have been able to keep up with the threads.

Yet even as he spoke his last words to Saruman, and the Palantir crashed in fire on the steps of the Orthanc, his thought was ever on Frodo and Samwise, over the long leagues his mind searched for them in hope and pity.

Maybe Frodo felt it, not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen, even though he believed Gandalf was gone, gone forever into the shadow of Moria far away.

This is a quote that I did not pick up on the first few times I read through the books, but I do think that Gandalf helped them along, encouraging them, even when he did not know just where they might be, and they in turn thought him dead. Maybe not as dramatically as he had on Amon Hen, but certainly as effectively.

It is interesting to note the difference between the landscape surrounding the Morannon and Ithilien, the first deserted by Men and second still frequented by them. Granted the area by Morannon probably never was lovely, it’s description seems almost lunar compared to very real beauty of Ithilien. Where the Black Gate is bleak and sickly to all five senses, Tolkien description of the rangers’ former homeland brings the place alive to all of the reader’s five senses. This description seems to highlight the beauty of Middle-Earth, contrasting it with the devastation that Sauron (and Melkor before him) would have it become. It is as if as long as Men do not give up ‘the good fight’, things may be marred but still possess an innate beauty.

To tell you the truth, I would not know a plot device from and egg beater, but I do enjoy this chapter immensely, regardless of, or perhaps because of, my literary ignorance.

Excellent observations on the parallels between the meeting of Faramir and the meeting of Aragorn, Mithalwen! I don’t believe I would ever have put that together for myself. Thanks.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Ah! One other thing I had forgot to mention....

'Ware! Ware!' cried Damrod to his companion. 'May the Valar turn him aside! Mûmak! Mûmak!'

Isn't this the first time that we have heard about the Valar from Mankind? I could be wrong, but it struck me as unexpected, especially given the fact that they were cut off from the elves. And it is yet another affirmation of this peoples' heritage. Despite it's decline, the Gondorians appear to have have passed down more than architecture, language and an excellent library.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The harshness of the landscape in Chapters 1 to 3, and the enormity of it which the Hobbits must overcome, also serves to underline just how little they are, both physically and metaphorically. They not only struggle with the logistics of getting down cliff faces but they are plunged, effectively alone, into an old and vast landscape, one which is treacherous and full of terror, as seen in the Dead Marshes. Here they are just two Hobbits trying to pick their way across the remains of an ancient battlefield, small and insignificant in comparison to what went before. We know what they carry, and just how important their mission is and therefore how far they really are from being insignificant, but the enormity of the landscape serves to remind us how vulnerable they are.



This passage shows us how at one time, this area must have been populated, that it even had such frivolous things as gardens with water features. Yet just as we are feeling safe and that the Hobbits are in a benevolent part of Middle Earth, Sam finds the Orcs' fire and we are not only reminded of the ever present peril they are in, but we get another reminder of how Sauron's servants have despoiled a beautiful place.

That is exactly what I meant by plot device, Lal. The geographical descriptions are not present simply because they are nice, but to serve a narrative function.

I will, however, take issue with your comments about "such frivolous things as gardens with water features". Of course any social habit or custom can be trivialised and sentimentalised, but gardens from time immemorial have had substantive cultural functions, as have water gardens and water features. One need only consider the traditions of water gardens in Middle eastern culture to recognise the significance of water to the human faculty of sub-creation. The loss of the hanging gardens of Babylon and the cedars of Lebanon stand as important cultural icons about loss. It suggests a lonely remnant of a once highly developed, sophisticated culture now lost.

I'm sure, however, that you could find frivolous garden features at the Chelsea Flower Show!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I will, however, take issue with your comments about "such frivolous things as gardens with water features". Of course any social habit or custom can be trivialised and sentimentalised, but gardens from time immemorial have had substantive cultural functions, as have water gardens and water features. One need only consider the traditions of water gardens in Middle eastern culture to recognise the significance of water to the human faculty of sub-creation. The loss of the hanging gardens of Babylon and the cedars of Lebanon stand as important cultural icons about loss. It suggests a lonely remnant of a once highly developed, sophisticated culture now lost.

I'm sure, however, that you could find frivolous garden features at the Chelsea Flower Show!

Yes, they are seemingly frivolous things in this day and age - though maybe not such mere trifles as they do create places for wild creatures to live and breed, turning our gardens into welcome space for nature. But I digress...

For a culture to be able to indulge in creating such spaces, it must have the time to do so, which would mean time not devoted to war and defence such as it is at the time of the War of the Ring. So if such gardens are indeed a remnant of lost cultures, then these cultures must have lived in peace to allow them the opportunity to sub-create. This makes it all the more sad that such things have been destroyed, as it is not only the 'thing' itself which has been lost, but the peace which allowed it to be created in the first place.

It's interesting that at this point along the journey, where we see a lost culture, we also have the entrance of Faramir, a cultured man who has been required to live his life out in the 'wilds', in military service. Not only are the products of a fine culture going to seed, but also the finest minds are in danger of being lost.

[Lathriel]

A garden represents peace,healing,and rest. Frodo and Sam find all this in Ithillien. They find peace and for a moment put their worries behind them, they also find rest. Especially Frodo who finally after many days is able to sleep soundly. This whole experience heals them a little and prepares them for the further hardships that are ahead.
Personally I believe that Frodo and Sam might not have made it if they hadn't gone through Ithillien. They really needed Faramir's help.But I think that I'm beginning to run into the next chapter so I'll just keep my thoughts till later.