LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 03 - The Black Gate Is Closed - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 03-20-2005, 06:12 AM

I wonder if the Oliphaunt song is one of Sam's own compositions, like the troll song. As an aside, I seem to remember Bob Stewart mentioning (possibly in 'The UnderWorld Initiation' or 'Where is St George: Pagan Imagery in English Folksong') that certain folk songs & ballads, or particular variants of them, were handed down in families, & it was considered very bad form for non family members to sing them. Tolkien seems to make reference to this in The Hobbit, where Bilbo returns to Bag End to find his goods & chattels being auctioned off for prices 'from next to nothing to old songs'. The implication being that these 'old songs' were a valuable commodity & could be exchanged for goods & services...

(edit: Lalwende points out the old saying 'going for a song' referring to something obtained cheaply, which Brewers Dictionary of Phrase & Fable suggests dates back to a time when ballad sheets were sold for a few pennies, or perhaps to the few coins tossed to street performers. Having said that, Tolkien does seem to imply that 'next to nothing' is at one extreme of the payment scale, while 'old songs' are at the other.)

03-20-2005, 06:12 AM	#18
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I wonder if the Oliphaunt song is one of Sam's own compositions, like the troll song. As an aside, I seem to remember Bob Stewart mentioning (possibly in 'The UnderWorld Initiation' or 'Where is St George: Pagan Imagery in English Folksong') that certain folk songs & ballads, or particular variants of them, were handed down in families, & it was considered very bad form for non family members to sing them. Tolkien seems to make reference to this in The Hobbit, where Bilbo returns to Bag End to find his goods & chattels being auctioned off for prices 'from next to nothing to old songs'. The implication being that these 'old songs' were a valuable commodity & could be exchanged for goods & services... (edit: Lalwende points out the old saying 'going for a song' referring to something obtained cheaply, which Brewers Dictionary of Phrase & Fable suggests dates back to a time when ballad sheets were sold for a few pennies, or perhaps to the few coins tossed to street performers. Having said that, Tolkien does seem to imply that 'next to nothing' is at one extreme of the payment scale, while 'old songs' are at the other.) __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 03-20-2005 at 06:19 AM.