tactical discussion, countering balrogs

[Celebaglar]

What reason had the maia to be fighting the balrogs, the noldor were not suited, they just came across the noldor.

[Lindolirian]

The Balrog yelled, and fell forward, and the fire of his being was extinguished in the Fountain, and he perished, along with Ecthelion, who, steel laden, sank into the depths, and so perished the Lord of the Fountain, after fiery battle in cool waters.

Keeper: This quote from the Fall of Gondolin has always made me think of the Fountain as a deep well because I can't imagine a great Elf like Ecthelion drowning in two inches of water. It is clear that it was deep enough to quench the weaking embers of Gothmog and drown and armour laden (not to mention rather tall) Elf.
In all seriousness, the most tried and true way to kill a Balrog has been casting him from a great height, but that's not always and option. Ecthelion killed Gothmog by stabbing with the spike of his helm, which I find downright hilarious. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only other descriptions of Balrog deaths are Glorfindel's and Gandalf's which were both done in by a great fall. Gothmog is the only one who gives us evidence that Balrogs can be killed by a physical wound which implies that their spirits are more tied to their bodies than Sauron's. Just ask Luthien and Huan about that one.
So the trick is either to overwhelm them by numbers (Rog and his House), impale them (Ecthelion), or toss them off a mountain.

Now if each of these fail, I'd say just send in a MOAB

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Aside from ICBMs (MIRVed or not), MOABs, and lone fighters, you can kill Balrogs with an absurdly large army of Maiar and Valinor Elves.

Probably except those that will hide in inaccessible caverns deep underground.

[Essex]

I usually find that about 15 hits of the Balrog with a 'bolt of the valar' from Gandalf usually does the trick. And as long as Idrial is there to bump up gandalf's health now and then there's no problem.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Celebaglar

What reason had the maia to be fighting the balrogs, the noldor were not suited, they just came across the noldor.

Celebaglar brings up a good point: fire-retardant suits are absolutely necessary. This, as Tolkien points out, was why the Elves were able to bring down so many in The Fall of Gondolin. Gondolin was the center of all fire-retardant suit manufacturing, however, so once it fell there was no longer an abundance of this special Elven armor. I believe Rog's chestpiece had a name, but it's not coming to me at the moment. Maybe someone else remembers.

[lord of dor-lomin]

If a fall can kill a Balrog, why didn't Durin's Bane die when he and Gandalf fell a million miles down from the bridge?

I mean, just think of how fast they'd be going after falling that far. Hitting water going that fast should kill you, right?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by lord of dor-lomin

If a fall can kill a Balrog, why didn't Durin's Bane die when he and Gandalf fell a million miles down from the bridge?

I mean, just think of how fast they'd be going after falling that far. Hitting water going that fast should kill you, right?

I think that lord of dor-lomin is correct regarding 'falling kills balrogs.' I assume that a fall, though even from a great height, can only wound not destroy a Balrog. Nor can they be drowned easily. I would say, seeing the examples provided, that the Balrogs must be seriously wounded before these other means of death are available.

Though not very obvious from the book, obviously Gandalf gives the Roggie more than a few paper cuts and spells (lightning bolts, fireballs, something?) before he casts him into ruin on the mountain.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by alatar:

Though not very obvious from the book, obviously Gandalf gives the Roggie more than a few paper cuts and spells (lightning bolts, fireballs, something?) before he casts him into ruin on the mountain.

I'm not sure that fireballs would to much good against Balrogs, but I think you have the right idea.

In the examples above, there seems to be a trend that you can physically hurt a balrog. (Falls, magic spells, helmet spikes...) It would make sense then that you could injure it enough to remove spirit from body. After all, that is death. The more pain inflicted, the farther apart a beings physical and spiritual parts move. It would probably take awhile, but it seems very possible to me that a balrog could simply be beaten to death.

Now, doing that before it kills you is the hard part.

[obloquy]

It's news that Balrogs are physically vulnerable?

[the phantom]

Terminal velocity for a human falling with his legs and arms stretched out is around 120 mph. That's pretty much as slow as you can fall.

Balled up- 200 mph

Maximum recorded free fall speed without any special equipment- 321 mph

That is really fast.

There is no doubt that such a fall would kill a person on land. Falling out of Celeborn and Galadriel's flet would likely kill someone.

Water is a different story.

Yes, it's true that water is more like a solid at high speeds (think skipping stones- or airplanes). I've gone water skiing before and yeah- when you try to flip and wipe out at 50 miles an hour you're going to skip a couple times and probably get a couple bruises, but it's not that bad. It's definitely possible to survive a 100 mph fall into water.

There was a jet pilot who bailed out at 10,000 plus feet and survived the dive into the ocean.

So no, the fall into the water did not have to kill or maim Gandalf and Durin's Bane.

But I bet they got a wicked welt, especially if they belly-flopped. Ouch.