Let's Talk Morgoth

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Maybe Iluvatar approved of the fabric but did not necessarily like all that was in it. Besides, Iluvatar did not have on his happy face by the end of Melkor's little disruption.

Iluvatar takes ownership for all that Melkor contributed, though. The Music did not deviate from his purpose, so did Iluvatar's purpose include "evil"?

No, Melkor wasn't happy about being cut down to size, but he also wasn't damned in any way as he would have been if he had managed to sabotage Iluvatar's purpose.

[Makar]

All of this just complicates the question, I believe. I'm sure the word "evil" is used in Tolkien, but does it just mean "a bad thing" or "a fell deed" and not an action in opposition to an ideal (which is Good)? If everything that happens is part of Iluvatar's plan, then is there no "evil"? Are we to assume that Eru is neither good or evil, but simply is? And therefore, everything that results from his plan/song also just is ? In this case things such as the kinslaying and the burning of the ships would not be considered "evil". However, if this is the case, would Men be able to commit "evil", since their actions reamained unseen or they opperated outside of the bounds of fate (I think that's how it works, correct me if I'm wrong)? Was Sauron "evil"?

[Kuruharan]

but he also wasn't damned in any way as he would have been if he had managed to sabotage Iluvatar's purpose.

I think sabotaging Iluvatar's purpose was beyond Melkor's capacity.

Also:

But Manwe was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Iluvatar, and was the chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor

Iluvatar evidently felt the discord was something to oppose.

I personally don't understand how Iluvatar's actions could be interpreted as favorable toward Melkor's activities. Note that Melkor was filled with shame as if he had been rebuked (which I think he had been).

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think sabotaging Iluvatar's purpose was beyond Melkor's capacity.

Obviously. That's the point. All of Melkor's discord did not corrupt Iluvatar's plan, so how can we call it evil without maligning Iluvatar himself? He didn't fix the Music or remove Melkor's contribution.

Iluvatar evidently felt the discord was something to oppose.

He didn't oppose it, he contained it. He humbled Melkor and silenced him when he saw fit, but he did not oppose the theme Melkor had sung. Had he opposed it, he would not have claimed to be its "uttermost source."

I personally don't understand how Iluvatar's actions could be interpreted as favorable toward Melkor's activities. Note that Melkor was filled with shame as if he had been rebuked (which I think he had been).

I'm not saying that Iluvatar favored Melkor's discord, but I am saying that it was permitted and within Melkor's rights.

[Kuruharan]

That's the point. All of Melkor's discord did not corrupt Iluvatar's plan, so how can we call it evil without maligning Iluvatar himself? He didn't fix the Music or remove Melkor's contribution.

-and-

I'm not saying that Iluvatar favored Melkor's discord, but I am saying that it was permitted and within Melkor's rights.

Yes, that's what I've been saying. However, if it is part of some rights given to Melkor, then Iluvatar is not at fault for them.

[Maédhros]

From the Quenta Silmarillion

§31 Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
§32 Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

One of the things that I find most interesting about this discussion is what happens to Melkor. It seems to me that he was playing his rôle in this affair of making Arda what it was supposed to be.
Not only did Melkor enrich Arda in the material sense, Arda remade being better than Arda Unmarred, but he ultimately enriched the story of the world. Can you imagine the history of Arda without his plans and machinations?
I wonder about the fate of Melkor. In this prophecy it is stated that he meets his end, but I wonder if that means if Melkor is destroyed and ceases to exist or is just that Melkor as Morgoth is defeated and he could be reborn or remade as Arda has?
Could there not be a place for a reformed Melkor in Arda or outside of it with Ilúvatar?

[Kuruharan]

Melkor is destroyed and ceases to exist or is just that Melkor as Morgoth is defeated and he could be reborn or remade as Arda has?
Could there not be a place for a reformed Melkor in Arda or outside of it with Ilúvatar?

Unanswerable question. Insufficient data.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes, that's what I've been saying. However, if it is part of some rights given to Melkor, then Iluvatar is not at fault for them.

You're right, I'm not saying Iluvatar's at fault. I'm saying Iluvatar apparently doesn't think it's a fault at all. Melkor's discord was woven into the Music and overpowered all other themes, but Iluvatar still claimed that the Music fulfilled his will. Therefore, how can we say that Melkor's discord was evil? If Iluvatar created everything, he was responsible for everything's opposite. On this tier of immaterial existence, there is no real way to qualify "evil" or "good," unless we define evil as the resistance to God's will. In our world, yes, that works, depending on what you believe. But in Ea it's different because Iluvatar claimed to be the uttermost source of Melkor's work, and that work, dissentious as it was, would bear out His own purpose and glory nonetheless.