Maia of music, hide no longer!

[mark12_30]

And (Second question) what are some of the similarities and differences between the two triangles: Raoul, Christine, Phantom; versus Beren, Luthien, Morgoth?

I wonder... Phantom wanted Christine in order that she would help him to make music. She inspired him. He wrote for her. There was a relationship there, albeit (on Phantom's part) a selfish one. And (let's not forget) Phantom trained Christine.

Luthien, on the other hand, wasn't trained by Melkor. I'm not sure there was much inspiration there, in a musical sense, either. And there's no indication that Morgoth wrote any music for her, or would have.

Which (actually) I find odd. Melkor was one of the greatest musicians, wasn't he? He was great enough to "compete" with the rest of the valar and with Eru himself, or so he thought. Yet it seems that he abandoned music after Ea "was"-- did he sing much? You raised the point that Sauron sang against Felagund-- great point, I had forgotten that. Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

In a sort of mirrored similarity, Phantom musically haunts and captivates Christine, and teaches her; whereas Luthien haunts Beren, and he hears Daeron's "music of a pipe unseen", and "music welling underground". In that sense, Beren is the haunted, captivated one, and his haunting is sweet (though full of doom.) Does Luthien "haunt" Morgoth musically?

EDIT: It's been a while since I read Sil, so please correct my faulty memory whenever you like!

[Encaitare]

Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

This sparks an interesting idea... perhaps he used some form of music for evil -- maybe that was part of Morgoth's "slow arts of cruelty" in creating the orcs. Maybe it was the deed "most hateful to Iluvatar" in part because he turned the music that Iluvatar gave the Ainur to such terrible purpose.

[mark12_30]

...which might answer why, in spite of how horrible orcs are, they still sing. Ho ho, my lads. (Stravinsky?? Just kidding.)

When I think back over the Sil, what songs stick in my mind? Luthien's song before Morgoth; Melian's song in Lorien when the brooks stopped flowing to listen; Yavanna's song that germinated the Two Trees. Song is used to entrance, to please, and to create.

In Phantom, the first two apply. But does the third?

[Encaitare]

In Phantom, the first two apply. But does the third?

Am pondering this... it seems that since music is the Phantom's passion, it creates this little world to which he can recede whenever he wants. It also creates love -- but this sense of creation is different than in Middle-earth. In M-e it has tangible results.

Will continue to ponder... hasn't anyone else anything to add? Come on, I know we've got plenty of Phantom Phans around here...

[Elianna]

Of course we're out here, but personally, I haven't read Silm yet. I am much enjoying this conversation though. Please continue.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Did Melkor do any more singing once the Ainulindale was complete? I have a mental picture of him sort of dropping it and 'moving on' to darkness and dastardly plotting, no music involved. Did Morgoth sing back to Luthien?

An interesting topic indeed, and I haven't even seen the new Phantom movie (although I've seen the 1925 original silent with Lon Chaney!). A thought that occurred to me from Helen's quote above was that Morgoth was diminished when he wrought his evil will to a certain extent. He lost his ability to change form and was stuck with one form of being in Middle Earth. Perhaps this is tied to the fading of his 'music,' in a metaphorical if not actual sense. His actual ability to create music as he had was perhaps a casualty of his evil path, and he wishes to renew himself without necessarily changing his ways.

This thread came to mind when I pondered just why Morgoth would covet Luthien: Uhg, a Terrible Thought . Perhaps he wished to tear the essence of her song from her in a way, coveting not only her beauty but her purity and ability to sing a powerful song...

These are incompletely formed thoughts, and I suppose it would help if I saw the new movie, but the theme of covetousness is there in the old one as well (as well as a wondrous full color Masque scene--unusual for 1925!) It has been a little while since my last reading of the Silmarillion as well, so any corrections or clarifications on any point are welcome!

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. I find it somewhat ironic that the founder of the thread I linked above is none other than the phantom!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The new "Phantom" movie hasn't been released over here yet, so I can't add anything to that aspect of the discussion. However, the question on Melkor's possible music after his rebellion made me think of one style that would seem appropriate - Death Metal!!