Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien makes use of these ideas but in a very 'Christian' way, to the extent that I think it can only be confusing to try & draw ideas from ancient Traditions into our attempt to understand events in Middle earth.Middle earth has its own rules & they are neither wholy Pagan nor entirely Christian. In orthodox Christianity the UnderWorld is a place of eternal damnation in the Mysteries it is a place of Light & liberation through darkness. In Middle earth it is something else....

Indeed, Arda has its own 'rules' and cannot be equated with the rules of either Christian or Pagan (or any other) traditions as it is its own place, a creation apart. But like with the idea of the Trickster appearing in Tolkien's work, these things do not appear in their entirety, copied wholesale across, and thus are not the same at all. But like with the Trickster, we can find some elements of these ideas of Hell or the Underworld.

Originally Posted by davem

In the UnderWorld one would encounter Powers which had to be faced & dangers which had to be passed through. If the initiate was successful he or she would emerge transformed by what they had experienced.

I think Tolkien does make use of this idea. When Gandalf falls in Moria he very much passes through the underworld and meets one who lives there, the Balrog. He battles with said being and passes through the danger; he is successful in his initiation. Thus he meets (we think) Eru and is indeed reborn. Gandalf even returns as the White, he is purified by his encounter and journey. This also has links to the Christian idea of resurrection. I don't think it would be wrong to look at what happens to Gandalf in view of both traditions, as it can help us to try and see what the true nature of this rebirth was, and in so doing, help us to understand the nature of Eru.

In some respects, the experiences of Frodo and Sam in Shelob's Lair reflect this on a more earthly level. In particular Sam, who comes through quite literally changed and reborn as a Ringbearer and hero.

The main difference in both these episodes is that in the old traditions, the Underworld is not a place to be feared, it is to be treated with respect, yes, but it is somewhere that the prospective intiate must not fear to go. But even then, thinking about Gandalf in Moria, does he fear to go there? He fears Moria, but he does not fear to confront and challenge the being which dwells therein.

[HerenIstarion]

Saruman's fate re:

For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.

The quote above concerns Sauron (in case the Ring is destroyed), but I can't see reasons why should it not apply to Saruman as well. Outward signs are similar after all:

Saruman

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Sauron

And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

Void re: it may be hell in the sense of not existence of hell - it is opposite of Being in that respect. But in not the hell in the sense of a place. In fact, Void is not a place at all, it's nothing

cheers

[Lindolirian]

How about the abyss that Gandalf referred to when he rebuked the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith? He told the Ringwraith that it was a place that awaits him and his master. This makes it seem like Gandalf, being a Maia and most likely in the know of the sort of things, believes in a real abyss of judgement. Or was he referring to the Void and is it really a physical place?

[Shelob]

How about the abyss that Gandalf referred to when he rebuked the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith?

I don't have my books with me right now Lindolirian so I can't go review that section to see how relevent this might be but the abyss could conceivably be based on the trench of Tartarus in Greek myth.

Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven...Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night....While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods...in later myths Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. From Here

Like I said, with out my books to refresh my memory of that part this may be wildly off...but it's the first thing I thought of so with luck it's relevant.

[Lush]

I love it how this thread just died like a 90-year old grandma....Anyway...

I guess I originally started this in order to make some sense of Tolkien's ideas concerning hell. People had brought up the Void, and from my reading of the books, I always imagined to be a sort of physical place. Saruman's death may make it seem as though he was simply destroyed, but I don't think that really jives with the rest of the books. Rather it would seem to me that in painting Saruman's death the way he did, Tolkien was explaining to us how miserable it is to be separated from the West, where he originally belonged.

Re-reading over this thread now, I am beginning to think that hell in Middle Earth is first and foremost separation from the divine.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Lush

...hell in Middle Earth is first and foremost separation from the divine.

Isn't that first and foremost what hell is in Christian teaching as well?

[Lush]

Yep. But some Christian scholars and thinkers are more specific about it than others. Some concentrate more on the fire and brimstone; while others, such as Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamazov are specific in talking about the suffering that results from the absence. Interestingly enough, the suffering is also very much self-inflicted...