Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[wilwarin538]

I dont intirely agree with what your ideas of Hell are. In the Christian religion (which I am part of) which you have mentioned often in this thread, we do not believe that you can at all or at any point in time return to earth after being in Hell. You are also not sent to hell to finish a certain task. May I ask were it is some of you got those ideas? I have never heard them before. I am not saying they are wrong I am just saying I do not agree.

[elronds_daughter]

I ask were it is some of you got those ideas?

I believe they come from Catholicism. But don't quote me, I'm not an expert on such things as that. No, wait! That's purgatory...... Whoops. Sorry.

[Eruanna]

Wilwarin
Tolkien was also a Christian, a Roman Catholic in fact, but he was also a classicist. He studied the Greek Myths and it is from stories like Orpheus and Euridice that we get the idea of 'going to hell and back' in order to complete a specific task.

[davem]

There is a danger of conflating the Pagan, Christian & 'Middle earthian' ideas of the UnderWorld. In the Mystery Traditions the UnderWorld was a place of Light, the source of Life itself. These Traditions were cthonic & a candidate for initiation entered into the UnderWorld through caves (natural or man-made) to encounter the UnderWorld Powers & be re-born. Hence initiates were known as the 'twice-born'. In the UnderWorld one would encounter Powers which had to be faced & dangers which had to be passed through. If the initiate was successful he or she would emerge transformed by what they had experienced.

Certainly there is an echo of this in the journey of Beren & Luthien into Angband, where they encounter a terrrifying power of darkness & emerge with the Silmaril, source of Holy Light. The UnderWorld was, therefore, not in any way like the Christian concept of Hell - in fact Hell as a place of eternal damnation did not exist in the Mystery Traditions.

But we stray into some very profound symbolic areas - the Womb & the Tomb. One enters the 'womb' of the Earth Mother to be re-born but in order to reach it one passes through the 'tomb' of the cave & is 'interred'.

Tolkien makes use of these ideas but in a very 'Christian' way, to the extent that I think it can only be confusing to try & draw ideas from ancient Traditions into our attempt to understand events in Middle earth.Middle earth has its own rules & they are neither wholy Pagan nor entirely Christian. In orthodox Christianity the UnderWorld is a place of eternal damnation in the Mysteries it is a place of Light & liberation through darkness. In Middle earth it is something else....

[Lush]

davem, when you write about the underworld as a place of light, what belief system are you referring to exactly?

Something that always stuck out at me when I read Homer was that when Odysseus encounters Achilles in the underworld, he complains about being dead and says that he would rather be someone lowly, yet still living above ground, rather than a hero in the underworld. And while I'm pretty sure the Greeks shared the idea of death and re-birth you mentioned, for the most part, their version of the underworld struck me as a relatively gloomy place, where people but are shades.

Wilwarin, in the Christian religion (or at least some versions of it, Catholicism being one, Eastern Orthodoxy being the other), the only ones to go to hell and come back are Jesus and Mother Mary, I believe. But the trip to hell had existed in symbolic language long before Christianity came along. I believe Heren provided a great post that comments on the Christian side of Frodo's journey above.

Furthermore, Heren, if hell in Tolkien is not a "place" (in the sense of Hades, for example), what are we to make of Saruman's death (thanks for the great quotation, Lalwendë)? Does he simply then cease to exist?

[Eruanna]

davem

Middle earth has its own rules & they are neither wholy Pagan nor entirely Christian.

Agree entirely.

In orthodox Christianity the UnderWorld is a place of eternal damnation in the Mysteries it is a place of Light & liberation through darkness.

I too cannot recall reading anything about an Underworld as a place of light...is this a Pagan belief?
I don't think it is just Christian orthodoxy that has the idea of eternal damnation. Most ancient (pre-Christian) religions have a belief in some sort of divine justice. The Greeks and Romans had Elysium (for the brave and good) and Tartarus (for the wicked) and coincidentally or not, if I remember correctly, one was situated in the far West and the other in the East.

[Garen LiLorian]

I think there is a 'hell' in Tolkien's world and it is the Outer Void, where Melkor was cast and where he serves his sentance. My reading of Saruman's death has always been that, when he is refused re-entry to the West, he is being cast into the void.

The fact that even the great evil of Middle-Earth is merely 'serving time' leads me to believe that Eru wouldn't (or possibly couldn't) cause any of his creations to ever cease to exist entirely. We see some echoes of this in Gandalf's actions and words to Gollum as well. (Having a part to play before the end, kind of thing)

Having said this, I entirely agree with Heren's (or Galorme's) thoughts on hell as a state of mind. Certainly people are capable of 'putting themselves through hell' and I tend to think that the only way that one can be incapable of being saved is if one doesn't want to be. And furthermore...
No, no. Must... not...wax...metaphysical... Grrr!

But getting back to Middle Earth. Tolkien seems to prefer purgatory to eternal hell, at least for the purpose of his faery story. This is born out with Melkor and the Void, (does it say anything that even the Big Bad is only in purgatory?) and also some of the lesser 'hells on earth' that have been spoken about so eloquently above.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Garen LiLorian

The fact that even the great evil of Middle-Earth is merely 'serving time' leads me to believe that Eru wouldn't (or possibly couldn't) cause any of his creations to ever cease to exist entirely.

But I see a big contradiction here: the Void is supposedly a place where nothing exists, hence the term. But Morgoth was cast into the Void. One of two things must happen then - either the Void ceases to become a void (for it has been filled), or Morgoth ceases to exist (keeping the Void as it is...a void).

I think that there is no hell in Middle Earth, so to speak. Hell there is possibly a state of mind, not a place. One such character who has been through her own hell and back is Eowyn. The moment she succumbed to despair, she was entrapped in her own "hell." She thought that there was no hope left for herself nor for Middle Earth, so she sought death, a final release from all her sufferings. However, in the end, a physically fallen hero by the name of Faramir helped her escape from her "hell." Thus she was given a renewed life, as Dante was after going through Inferno.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lush

davem, when you write about the underworld as a place of light, what belief system are you referring to exactly?

The UnderWorld/Faery Tradition is an ancient one which has always run 'beneath' both Pagan & Christian orthodoxy. Here's a link to an article by a modern seer, RJ Stewart. His books, The UnderWorld Initiation, Earthlight & Power Within The Land, are worth checking out:
http://www.dreampower.com/underworld.html

Anyway, very off topic...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien makes use of these ideas but in a very 'Christian' way, to the extent that I think it can only be confusing to try & draw ideas from ancient Traditions into our attempt to understand events in Middle earth.Middle earth has its own rules & they are neither wholy Pagan nor entirely Christian. In orthodox Christianity the UnderWorld is a place of eternal damnation in the Mysteries it is a place of Light & liberation through darkness. In Middle earth it is something else....

Indeed, Arda has its own 'rules' and cannot be equated with the rules of either Christian or Pagan (or any other) traditions as it is its own place, a creation apart. But like with the idea of the Trickster appearing in Tolkien's work, these things do not appear in their entirety, copied wholesale across, and thus are not the same at all. But like with the Trickster, we can find some elements of these ideas of Hell or the Underworld.

Originally Posted by davem

In the UnderWorld one would encounter Powers which had to be faced & dangers which had to be passed through. If the initiate was successful he or she would emerge transformed by what they had experienced.

I think Tolkien does make use of this idea. When Gandalf falls in Moria he very much passes through the underworld and meets one who lives there, the Balrog. He battles with said being and passes through the danger; he is successful in his initiation. Thus he meets (we think) Eru and is indeed reborn. Gandalf even returns as the White, he is purified by his encounter and journey. This also has links to the Christian idea of resurrection. I don't think it would be wrong to look at what happens to Gandalf in view of both traditions, as it can help us to try and see what the true nature of this rebirth was, and in so doing, help us to understand the nature of Eru.

In some respects, the experiences of Frodo and Sam in Shelob's Lair reflect this on a more earthly level. In particular Sam, who comes through quite literally changed and reborn as a Ringbearer and hero.

The main difference in both these episodes is that in the old traditions, the Underworld is not a place to be feared, it is to be treated with respect, yes, but it is somewhere that the prospective intiate must not fear to go. But even then, thinking about Gandalf in Moria, does he fear to go there? He fears Moria, but he does not fear to confront and challenge the being which dwells therein.

[HerenIstarion]

Saruman's fate re:

For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.

The quote above concerns Sauron (in case the Ring is destroyed), but I can't see reasons why should it not apply to Saruman as well. Outward signs are similar after all:

Saruman

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Sauron

And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

Void re: it may be hell in the sense of not existence of hell - it is opposite of Being in that respect. But in not the hell in the sense of a place. In fact, Void is not a place at all, it's nothing

cheers