Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[HerenIstarion]

The following is a part of conversation which took place between yours truly and Galorme (sorely missed member, btw) once upon a time, by PM long ago. Courtesy of said Galorme, who made a file of it and sent it back to me:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Hell does not exist indeed. ... It may sound paradoxical a bit, but hell exists too, at the same time. The argument is the following. God (and as a result, Heaven) is Existence with a capital E, i.e. the source of all existence in general. Any thing opposed to God has the negative characteristics, still more Satan (and therefore hell). Therefore … the evil is not existent in itself but mere lack of Good … let me suggest you to think of God as of a fountain spraying good things from itself. One of the good things it flows off with is existence. The farer you get from the Fountain … more dry is the place, i.e. less ‘existent’. The ‘dry place’ is not created by ‘Fountain’, it is dry because it is far from it (and in this case the free will comes into play as the ‘dry place’ withdrew itself from the fountain and so became dry). So not God created hell, but Satan chose to place himself into hell exercising his free will. Therefore hell may be considered not as existent place created by God, but as a state of mind creature (any creature…) can drive itself into it case it freely chooses to do things against God's will. [so] any place (and any state of mind) apart from one in accordance with God’s will is hell in itself and by definition. [So] beings are not tortured against their free will, but by the chain of their choices place themselves in a position which in itself is a torture. Satan is less of a torturer than a most tortured being of all

Therefore, there need not be ultimate [meta]physical hell in ME.

(We've been through this in C-thread, haven't we? And in Tolkien and the Monsters too? And a number of other places as well? )

In the light of excerpt above, it may be of interest to recall Tolkiens sentences hinting that external factors reflect inner 'state of mind' of ainu class of beings, i.e., when Morgoth is in doubt and fear, he clothes himself in clouds, likewise does Sauron. I.e. - Mordor looks like hell because Sauron's mental and emotional whether follows his will's barometer (for in the case, the barometer leads the wheather, not vice versa), and barometer shows hell

Frodo's 'descent symbolism' is purely Christian. On the other hand (and praise be to Tolkien for it), it is not claiming too much - Frodo, even if a symbol of Christ, is also a symbol of pre-Christian times, and is mere human too. He is not perfect, and he's descent is not perfect - for only One was able to perform it perfectly. His failure is a failure of a Fallen human - though action is required on your own behalf and you should do all you can a little bit more, nothing can be done without Divine help nevertheless (thus uniting Boethian and Manichaean points of view). Gollum is Divine help in the case. But divine help is acquired through one's own actions - Gollum pitied - Gollum there to fall with the Ring.

Fallen hero re: It is as good there are no fallen heroes on the road. It would have been a mistake, hangover of classical age and Hades, where all souls go to be sad and silent (Elysium being later addition). In that kind of story, the 'hell-visitor' is usually alive, and the 'host' already dead. Besides, 'fallen' hero is no longer a hero, is s/he?

Rather hasty, I intend to elaborate later on

cheers