Battles of Beleriand

[Angry Hill Troll]

This raises another question that I've wondered about: what were the relative strengths of the Noldor arriving in M-E with Feanor and Fingolfin, and the host of the west in the War of Wrath.

It seems that in accordance with the Michael Martinez quote cited earlier, that of the Noldor in Aman at the time of the Death of the Trees:

1/4 refused to leave or turned back with Finarfin

1/4 died fighting the Teleri, in storms, and particularly crossing the Helcaraxe

1/4 arrived in M-E following Feanor

1/4 arrived in M-E following Fingolfin (although he started with a larger host, many died crossing the Helcaraxe


The 25% of the Noldor following Feanor won the Dagor-nuin-Giliath by themselves. Furthermore, they were outnumbered, but won largely because the orcs could not withstand the light of Valinor which had not yet dimmed in their faces.

In the War of Wrath, the Teleri only provided transport, and did not fight. The Noldor who had remained in Aman did, as did the Vanyar. None of the elves of M-E participated in the War of Wrath. The few of the Edain who remained fought on the side of the elves, but this couldn't have been more than a token force.

So in the War of Wrath, the Vanyar (let's say there were half as many Vanyar as Noldor at the death of the Trees) and the 25% of the Noldor who didn't leave Aman, were the only ones fighting, plus some Maiar (it's unclear how many, but it seems that if the Valar wanted to overpower Morgoth by using Ainur, they would have come themselves).

Now, there was some increase in numbers of the Noldor and Vanyar in Aman in the intervening 600 years, but it doesn't appear that the military force in the War of Wrath was overwhelmingly larger than that of the Noldor exiles when they first arrived, and certainly not at the time of the Dagor Bragolach.

What was the differencein outcomes? Well, not having a curse helps! Also, the host of the West still had the light which the orcs couldn't withstand, and they had some backing from Maiar to help dealing with Dragons, Balrogs, etc. Finally, it seems that in defeating the Noldor, Morgoth had embarked on an arms race that severely weakened his own power and ability to control his armies. That seems to be what Tolkien seems to imply in his statement the Sauron was effectively greater in the Second Age than was Morgoth at the end of the First Age.

I'm sure there's a lot of room for discussion here... :-)

[Felagund]

You are also implying, with the numbers put forth, that every Elf fought in every battle. This doesn't make sense for a few reasons;
1) You have to assume that at least half of the Noldor present in Middle Earth were female, as it was not an army leaving Aman, but rather the migration of a people, or kindred.
2) Tactically, there is a reserve in every battle. Even in the Battle in which Fëanor was slain, the existence of a reserve is implied. "There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come up with force to his aid..." -Silm. p107. Thus, not every elf INVOLVED in the battle would have participated in the actual fighting.
3) Also, the slaying of millions of elves is unfeasible, in my opinion. It oft says that elves were slow to reproduce, and did not have many children, and did not marry until late. I mean honestly, Thingol stood in the woods with Melian for like, a thousand years holding her under the stars... if it took all elves that long to reproduce there wouldn't be very many of them at all, to say the least. I highly doubt that there could have even been millions of elves (of all the kindreds combined) in Beleriand at all, much less millions to slay.

On another note, does anyone know anything about the composition of forces in the First/Second Battle? The equipment of certain companies, their leaders, and their doings and happenings? I know in The Book of Lost Tales 2, the account of the Fall of Gondolin is very in depth and detailed in that matter... is there anything of that sort pertaining to the first two battles under the moon?

[Kuruharan]

I'm not sure Thingol and Melian could really qualify for normal elvish mating practices.

Millions might be a stretch but I think somewhere in the area of maybe one million (maybe a little more) for a total elven population in Beleriand is reasonable (including all kindreds and realms). Less than this and you begin to have a hard time picturing how their kingdoms managed to survive and function at all, especially considering the amount of territory they had to cover.

I have always assumed that the population of Men in Beleriand was always much less than the elves. The population of Dwarves in the mountains is also difficult to estimate although clearly it would be less than the elves.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

For a while I can only get to the intrnet sporadically, I need a new one to use the high-spee connection, but here's some observations on the Second Battle of Beleriand, Dagor-nuin-Giliath, Battle-Under-Stars.
This was actually a curious battle in that neither side had good intel about the
weapons and capabilities of the other. Also, Feanor's lads were actually virtual
novices, their only significant action being pushing around the outarmed Teleri.
After "Sonny" Feanor's (you can't do business with that hothead ) hastiness
(what would Treebeard have thought) the Noldor initially prevailed due to their "potent swords" and the daunting effect on the nassty orcsees of the Light
of Aman undimmed in their eyes. So the orcs were surprised by the Noldor abilities, and then the Noldor were taken unawares by the Balrogs.
Having just seen a cable tv program discussing requirements for (defensive, in this case) battles featuring Kursk and a German World War I defensive, it's
remarkable how much the Noldor and Morgoth's lads totally ignored the importance of recon and intel collection, and that both sides did later improve their efforts, recall the Noldor even sending patrols north of Angband.

Speculation: if Feanor was less hasty and survived the Dagor-nuin-Giliath,
would that have been a plus? He was a creative guy, but probably would have made Noldor reconciliation (not to mention with Doriath) rather problematic.

Also: thanks for P.M.s. I'm poor at figuring out how to send them, may get around to doing so.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Dagor Aglareb

The Third battle seems to feature another example of poor intel
reconaissance by Morgoth while the Noldor (aided by Ulmo) appear
to be thinking several steps ahead of M.- Turgon and Finrod being
inspired to begin their search for refuges while M.'s spies misread
the situation in Beleriand, believing that the Noldor are "wandering
abroad with little thought to war". Morgoth tries to use shock and
awe (volcanoes and earthquakes) and then sends raiding parties east
and west with the main effort in Dorthonion. But good Noldor intel and
preparation (prior planning prevents poor performance ) leads to
Noldor special forces eliminating the orc raiders while the nassty
orcsees in Dorthonion are destroyed.

However, a glaring planning error of the elves seems to be their
neglecting to plan for an effective siege and seizing of Angband
(and how else will they get back the Silmarils?

As for Morgoth, in the Dagor Aglareb he seems remarkably
unimaginative. Both elves and Morgoth here seem in somewhat of
a World War I mentality, not thinking creatively For example,
ignoring tactical implimentation failures, Churchill with
tanks and the Dardanelles ploy).

However, Morgoth does seem to learn from his errors. He significantly
upgrades his intel, both through more effective use of spies and a form
of "brainwashing" of captured elves, and his developing new weapons
systems.

And by the by, why were Noldorin elves deterred by ice and snow north of
Angbad, when you recall Leggy's walking on snow at Caradhras, and
being uneffected by the cold?

[Arathul]

Concerning the war of wrath. It is said that the war broke the land and sunk beleriand into the sea, leaving only Forlindon and Harlindon. is it possible that the valar participated in the battle as well? can the host of noldor and vanyar alone wield enough power to sunk a continent?