Why?? Special effects and CGI in LOTR

[Celebuial]

Thanks for all your comments. I s'pose I was being a bit nit picky...

I agree that there was an over reliance on CGI, that was what I was trying to say. And you went and put it so simply!

I don't agree about the green beam being a minor point though. I understand what you said about poetic licence, but I felt that it just looked as though The Witch King was more powerfull than he is, and it seemed decidedly "untolkienish".

[Imladris]

Everybody views Tolkien's works differently. PJ had his own vision.

For example, I didn't have a problem with the mumualiks.

Also the requirements of film had a lot to do with changes made etc etc etc. More there on the Dumbing it Down Thread

Point is that it seems that a lot of LotR fans are missing the point of the movie. They quibble about Faramir's changed hair colour, the fact that Legolas had blonde hair even though Tolkien does not say what colour hair he has at all, etc.

Please, stop the quibbling about minor things such as light and the roving lighthouse eye. It's getting tiring to read criticisms that are based on the reader's conception.

[Lalwendë]

I didn't find the special effects to be too intrusive at all, but then I'm a little naive and innocent at times and tend to just sit back and watch films, silently accepting that all these peculiar things are in fact, real. To this end, I tend not to enjoy watching those documentaries about how special effects are created as they tend to take away that naive enjoyment I get from them. I was most disappointed to find out that much of Master & Commander was filmed in a water tank, though I suppose my expectations that it might have been entirely filmed at sea were perhaps a little unrealistic. I was, however, pleased to discover that a lot of the shots are actually real time shots from The Endeavour.

But I digress. It is inevitable I suppose that films with a lot of action in them are going to rely heavily on special effects these days. We all want more! bigger! louder! Or do we? There have recently been a fair amount of documentaries sneaking into the local multiplexes in the wake of Bowling for Columbine, and they do pretty well. Not all are political, as shown by Touching The Void. Is this evidence that audiences are actually getting jaded with special effects? I went to see Van Helsing and found myself a little overwhelmed with the effects to the extent that I actually enjoyed it a lot better when I watched it at home and could take a breather halfway through. I think this was a good example of where special effects almost took over entirely; there was simply too much! Then I went to see The Day After Tomorrow which naturally (thankfully?) had to include lots of effects; in this case, they worked beautifully, as they were in context, not just slapped on with a trowel to make a louder, larger film. Perhaps the rise in popularity of documentaries shows that real life is actually more shocking and more stunning than even the best special effects?

Now, on those specific effects in LotR. The only times I found them particularly intrusive stick in my mind. In TT there is a scene with a Warg rider which seemed obviously fake, and there are the scenes where Legolas does his outlandish 'leaping on running beasts' stunts. While watching these I thought "these remind me of the jumpy animation in those old Sinbad movies". Then I found out that Jackson reveres Ray Harryhausen and I wondered if he deliberately tried to have some effects like his in the films. Now, those old Sinbad movies may well be ace to watch for a bit of nostalgia, but it was also these effects which wer the only ones I found odd and intrusive.

I did not find I enjoyed many of the scenes where Mumakil/Fell Beasts were wiping out horses left right and centre, but this could be because I am rather squeamish, and again due to my innocent belief that all this is really happening. I tend to watch those scenes from behind a cushion, in much the same way as I used to watch Doctor Who as a child. But it is the long shots that the effects really did work well. There are many stunning scenes which simply could not have worked without special effects, such as the Ride of the Rohirrim, which to me bring apects of the book to life. Though if I'm being nit-picky, there are some errors in comparison to the book (could. not. resist.). The green beam of light at Minas Morgul is a favourite of mine in the long list of special effects, but not due to the visuals, due to the sound. It seems to stop for a heartbeat and almost become reverse sound, if such a thing is possible, and it scares me half to death.

[The Saucepan Man]

I cannot imagine a film of LotR which would not rely heavily on special effects (although Bethberry would probably disagree ).

Generally, I think that the effects were excellent throughout all three films (but then again, I am an SFX fan). Where there is a problem with them, I don't think it is a consequence of their over-use, but rather of the manner in which they are used.

For example, I thought that the close-up shots of the Army of the Dead, particularly their King, in the Paths of the Dead were excellent. They seem to shift between zombie and skeleton without ever being entirely one or the other. But in the long shots, the effect is lost and they end up looking like little more than an amorphous green blobby mass (aka the green virus ). I would have preferred close-up shots of small groups of the Dead routing the Orcs.

Similarly, the Fiery Eye of Sauron was used well throughout the first two films - symbolically as it is in the book. But once Frodo and Sam enter Mordor, it takes on a life of its own. No wonder that so many people believe that Sauron was that Eye. I have to agree that the searchlight was a mistake. Again, a good effect used to the wrong (*ahem*) effect.

But there are many wonderful special effects in the final film too. The Trolls look just as good to me as the Cave Troll in FotR. The Orcs were just as varied and credible - with one notable exception (although I must be the only person here who has a sneaking affection for Gothmog - the idea was good, even if the execution is rather over the top, and the acting is excellent). Gollum just gets better, as far as I am concerned, throughout the three films. And then we have the breathtaking first sight of Minas Tirith (just as I always imagined it), the Eagles, the swooping Fell Beasts with Nazgul sat astride, the depiction of Sammath Naur. The Mumakil may have been gargantuan, but they were (in my view) immaculately executed. I could go on.

And I agree with The Only Real Estel. Shelob was an uber spider. Personally, I thought the decision to portray her as looking like a real spider, only rather larger, rather than a more obviously "fantasy" creature, was a good one. But then, that is how I have always imagined her. The scene where she crawls out of a fissure above Frodo is excellent in its creepiness. That's just how real spiders emerge from cracks (*shudders*).

[Celebuial]

I agree with The Saucepan Man- Lotr wouldn't have been possible without the special effects, but I still feel that there were too many, or that they were just overdone in the third film. Also what you say about the dead kinda does make sense.... I don't agree about the trolls though, for some reason the one that Aragorn stabs in the foot seems so 'fake'. Oh, and I agree about the eye in the first two films, it was exactly as I'd imagined it and with the excellent sound that goes with it, it really is superb.

Ok, about the uber spider comment: I meant that PJ put everything that he hated about spiders into Shelob. For me this kinda took away the creepiness of the close-ups. There was too much going on with her for me to just accept that she was one big bad evil spider out for blood. Anyway, I was being picky- the majority of the scene does feel creepy to me.

I don't deny that there are still great special effects that are used well in the third film, I was just focusing on the bad- what can I say? I'm pesimistic. Obviously it goes without saying that Gollum is a work of genius from Andy Serkis and Weta.

Morsul the dark made a very good point about the size of the oliphaunts. I checked last night and they do seem smaller when Legolas is climbing one compared to when Eyowen and Merry are ridding underneath them!

[King of the North]

I agree and disagree with some of wat Celebuial said. Given the quality of the visual effects done by WETA, the more the better. In my opinion, the more PJ used special effects the more of Middle Earth came to life. Looked real. But i would have to agree that the armored trolls looked very CGish, especially the one fighting Aragorn at the end. Celebuial said that

orcs don't simply look like orcs

. Well if ur comparing the RotK orcs to orcs in TT or FotR then no they don't look like orcs. And that was delliberate, because PJ wanted the Mordor Orcs to be a different breed almost. Strong more intimidating. Personally i did not like the appearance of the RotK orcs, and prefer those from TT and FotR. This is because new orcs look more human than elven, and we must remember: orcs are mutilated elves. I would have to say though that I thought Shelob was very well done. Everything about her including all the graphics and also her sound effects. I don't really understand where u are coming from saying that it was not true to Tolkien description. I too agree that Saruman's death scene could have been done better.

You did make some pretty good points

[Lathriel]

We all must remember that nobody ever tried making LOTR (except as animated) because of the amount of visual effects.

I like most of the visual effects.

I thought Shelob was EXTREMELY creepy because they made her so spidery. Even though I have watched ROTK over and over it still creeps me up and I still whisper "Look up," at the screen when Shelob is hovering above Frodo.

I like the Mumakil, and I always thought that they were slightly bigger than elephants.

Also I heard that while WETA was creating the army of the dead Pirates of the carribean came out in theatres. They discovered that what they were doing with the Army of the Dead was very close to what was done in pirates. Yet I think the end result is very neat and also very different. I like the fact that they seem to change being at once skeletal and at other times they look like their rotting flesh is still covering their bones.

However, I don't like Gothmog, he just seemed slightly unnessecary. I think they could have done without him or maybe made his deformations a little less extreme.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I cannot imagine a film of LotR which would not rely heavily on special effects (although Bethberry would probably disagree ).

Generally, I think that the effects were excellent throughout all three films (but then again, I am an SFX fan). Where there is a problem with them, I don't think it is a consequence of their over-use, but rather of the manner in which they are used. . . .

Well now, SaucePanMan, why ever would you think I might disagree? After all, I am a publically-declared Star Wars fan. Nor, in fact, am I a 'Middle-earth Purist."

I do agree with you that is it not the prevalence of SFX which might be the question, but the quality of the particular special effects. Two in particular I found, for me, unconvincing. And I am quite willing to acknowledge that this is a matter of personal, subjective taste.

The first is Galadriel's "Dark Queen" scene. I cannot help but compare it to Gandalf the Grey's temptation scene, which to me was far more "believable." That is, it seemed in keeping with the wizard's character without appearing to satisfy any visual pyrotechnics. (I supposed the fireworks scene amounted to Gandalf's pyrotechnics. ) I cannot fathom why Blanchett was preempted for special effects unless it was simply to wow us with special effects. And that, I think, it a misuse of SFX.

The second SFX which in many ways disappointed me was--and I am fully aware that I am likely a minority of one in this regard--in fact Gollem. It is not that I think the CGI was poorly done or overdone, as with Galadriel. It is because I have seen a human actor on stage recreate Gollem spendidly. The actor was not only a talented actor, but an exceptional gymnast. Perhaps I might even say contortionist. His performance made me feel I was in the presence of real art, real 'subcreation', to use one of Tolkien's terms. I could not erradicate my memory of this performance as I watched what I knew was a different kind of art, a technical/computer device to mimic a character. Wonderful as this CGI Gollem was, I remained rooted in the perception that this was a neat CGI, rather than a stunning visual effect which could not easily or effectively be created by mere human presence.

There was one other aspect of the SFX, come to think of it (and yes I know this makes three) that disappointed me. It was every time a creature reminded me of a creature in Star Wars. Here I will mention the Moria troll. There were others as well. The movements, shapes, and sizes many of the other special effects creatures in fact did not make me think of Middle-earth, but of the Ice Planet Hoth, or, well, I shouldn't go on.

I guess in part my 'definition' or appreciation of art involves illusion, or magic, or slight of hand, the substitution of something to make me imagine something else, rather than a full scale depiction of the alterity. Where the SFX gave me the imagined illusion of Middle earth, I loved them. Where they made me think of themselves as technical procedure, or previous SFX, then, for me, they failed.

As for the various orcs, well, the more I realised I was being asked to relegate them to the side of evil because of their disgusting physical abnormalities, the more I became uneasy with the suggestion that evil has a counterpart in physical deformity. I could not overcome my (modern? contemporary?) moral understanding that evil takes many forms, not all of them having a clear correlation with physical appearance. Sometimes, for me, beauty holds a terror. There were moments when the movie, because it is such a complete recreation of image, made me uncomfortable for its suggestiveness. And, interestingly, that is something I never felt, for instance, about the famous bar scene in the original Star Wars.

Chaq'une à sa gout.

[Celebuial]

Bethberry, and Lalwende made very good points about the deformation of the Orcs. I'd never even considered this before. I feel quite ashamed to admit that. Anyway, now you mention it I see what you mean. I rewatched some of the scenes with lots of Orcs and saw that what you said was true. I'm quite horrified by this. Not quite, very. I never felt this like Bethbery said whilst watching Star Wars either. Very interesting. I shall spend a good long time pondering this, so I can write a better response....

[Lathriel]

Well the idea that evil always comes in the form of deformity is certainly a common theme in these movies.
They were going to counter this with Sauron coming to the battle field in a beautiful form. However, I prefer evil in the shape of orcs and other such disgusting creatures than Sauron coming to the battle field.

But I don't think this observation is completely true since the southerners' costumes are pretty (I think) with the maroon/gold and khol around their eyes.