Ioreth

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have to say that I am not sure I wouldn't go that far.. I wouldn't say that she is particularly significant to the story - other than it oils Aragorn's acceptance by his people, and I think Tolkien meant no more than for her to provide a little light relief at a moment of high tension and as a device to get Aragorn into the city.

True, but she does 'establish' Aragorn as the King as she reminds him that he needs to be a healer too. I think she shows 'acceptance' by the untitled people who aren't impressed with titles, lineages or skill with a sword.

If you look at the original thread, she crops up as an example of an "ordinary", non-idealised woman. Perhaps she is the only one with a distinctive voice as you put it (and certainly she is distinctive).

She gives the story a 'real' feel in that she is earthy/common - no elvish or Numenorian blood, no elvish prophecy in her head, no great feats of daring-do...During the coronation of the first king in *how* many generations she's still talking! How cool is that? ("Sure, the Nameless One was defeated and the King has returned, but wait until you hear what *I* did!").

Plus, Tolkien has so many major and minor characters to deal with that I think that you are to assume that there are many such Ioreths (ordinary woman) like there are many such Bergils (ordinary boy) to fill in the environment using the models that he provides.

I agree regarding the comic relief status. Gimli can't be everywhere...

Gandalf calls her a "wise-woman" (altogether now "There are two things you should know about the wise woman... one .. she is wise..")

Meaning? (Am I slow on the uptake?)

[Mithalwen]

Soory ... that was one for fans of "The Black Adder" or rather "Blackadder the Second" when Edmund seeks out the wise woman and receive the following advice from the man who gives directions:

Old Man : "There are 2 things you should klnow about the wise woman..one, she is wise, two .."

Edmund (in a hurry) "She's a woman I suppose?"

Old Man "Oh you know her then?" Sorry .....


Actually I think Bergil makes it clear that most have gone... but I think it is a good touch that Tolkien uses Ioreth rather than a random woman to be voice in crowd.

BTW .. Gimli as comic relief, is a bit of a film invention. I Master of Middle Earth, Paul Kocher says he only makes one joke in the whole book ... when he meets the Hobbits at Isengard ..

But after all that ... the short answer is "Good points"

[alatar]

Thanks. Heard of the show. Not up on all 'Britcoms' - I love the "Young Ones" and "The Brittas Empire."

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

BTW .. Gimli as comic relief, is a bit of a film invention. I Master of Middle Earth, Paul Kocher says he only makes one joke in the whole book ... when he meets the Hobbits at Isengard ..

Sorry that I wasn't more clear - I was going to add a line re PJ on the Gimli thing, but thought that you'd know what I meant (he being PJ's and not JRRT's clown).

[mark12_30]

Mithalwen and Alatar, several interesting points. May I donate a few more:

‘Indeed we have heard of Fangorn in Minas Tirith,’ said Boromir. ‘But what I have heard seems to me for the most part old wives’ tales, such as we tell to our children.....’
‘Then I need say no more,’ said Celeborn. ‘But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.’

It has been pointed out more than once that next to Celeborn stood a very, very, very old wife, who knew a great many tales. But she was still worth listening to.

‘The Ents!’ exclaimed Aragorn. ‘Then there is truth in the old legends about the dwellers in the deep forests and the giant shepherds of the trees? Are there still Ents in the world? I thought they were only a memory of ancient days, if indeed they were ever more than a legend of Rohan.’

Was Aragorn listening when Celeborn made his point?

‘They are the shepherds of the trees,’ answered Gandalf [to Theoden]. ‘Is it so long since you listened to tales by the fireside? "

Theoden did listen to Gandalf, as we see in his next little lore-test (italics mine: )

...said Théoden. ‘So these are the lost ones of your company, Gandalf? The days are fated to be filled with marvels. Already I have seen many since I left my house; and now here before my eyes stand yet another of the folk of legend. Are not these the Halflings, that some among us call the Holbytlan?’

Even the herb-master at the houses of healing didn't get it:

Thereupon the herb-master entered. ‘Your lordship asked for kingsfoil... ... it has no virtue that we know of... ...Unless, of course, you give heed to rhymes of old days which women such as our good Ioreth still repeat without understanding.

When the black breath blows
and death’s shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king’s hand lying!

It is but a doggrel, I fear, garbled in the memory of old wives. Its meaning I leave to your judgement, if indeed it has any. But old folk still use an infusion of the herb for headaches.’

‘Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man of less lore and more wisdom who keeps some in his house!’ cried Gandalf.

Did Ioreth really repeat this rhyme without understanding? Or had the loremaster simply lost the art of listening respectfully to wise-- although sometimes very annoying-- old women?

The entire point of the passage is that, just as Celeborn had warned, "old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know"-- and may be needful again. Gandalf is not long on patience, and rarely does anyone give him counsel, but look at his response to Ioreth's opening words:

Then an old wife, Ioreth, the eldest of the women who served in that house, looking on the fair face of Faramir, wept, for all the people loved him. And she said: ‘Alas! if he should die. Would that there were kings in Gondor, as there were once upon a time, they say! For it is said in old lore: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known.’

And Gandalf, who stood by, said: ‘Men may long remember your words, Ioreth! For there is hope in them. Maybe a king has indeed returned to Gondor; or have you not heard the strange tidings that have come to the City?’

‘I have been too busy with this and that to heed all the crying and shouting,’ she answered. ‘All I hope is that those murdering devils do not come to this House and trouble the sick.’

Then Gandalf went out in haste...

[Assasin]

I think you got me wrong, you see I thought i was talking about Eomer's wife who I read somwhere that her name was Ioreth.

Am I wrong?

[Formendacil]

Yup, you're wrong.

Ioreth was an old, single woman in Minas Tirith. Eligible, but not Eomer-marrying material.

Eomer's wife was Lothiriel (with a ' over the "o", which I am too lazy to try and find the code to), the daughter and youngest child of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth. Other than general family history, nothing is known about her.

[mark12_30]

So much for my rant.

Lothiriel of Dol Amroth...

Ummm, she had elvish blood, and she probably missed the sea just a bit, as folk who move inland tend to do.