LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 11 - The Palantír

[davem]

Originally Posted by Neithan

The Ring did not have a spirit.

No. I said it was a 'locus' of spiritual evil. I was (probably not clearly enough) drawing an analogy between the Ring as a phyisical object with a 'spiritual/metaphysical' aspect & an Elf/Human made up of fea/hroa.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I view the Trees as being a creation of the Valar, which they were able to hallow and fill with light by their own power.

I've always understood the Light (as opposed to light) to be the Secret Fire, & so Saruman's breaking of it is a blasphemous rather than a 'scientific' act. The Light of the Trees is called 'Holy' which I think relates it to Eru rather than the Valar. All Holiness has its origin in Eru not in any of His subordinates. Besides, if they could produce the Light themselves why not just conjure up some more. The point is that the Light is limited & grows less & less from the Lamps to the Trees to the Sun & Moon. That implies that the Valar didn't have an endless supply - they couldn't just 'manufacture' it.

Originally Posted by Lyta

The power is in the desire of the thing, not native in the thing itself.

But the Jewels are not morally neutral. They are 'Holy'. They exert a 'pull'. If the Light they contain has its origin in Eru then that attraction would be intense & quite possibly overwhelming - as proved so often to be the case....

Perhaps Faramir would have used the Palantir. Certainly I don't believe he would ever have used the Ring - because he knew that was Evil. He may have used a Palantir on the other hand - if he hadn't known what had happened to Saruman.

Too rushed..

[Kuruharan]

I've always understood the Light (as opposed to light) to be the Secret Fire, & so Saruman's breaking of it is a blasphemous rather than a 'scientific' act.

To continue my path of providing a counterpoint to everything, I think that light is its own order of creation (for lack of a better way of explaining it). I think that it is something that would be strongly attached to the good and not especially malleable to evil. However, it remains a created thing below Eru. However, this is obviously an opinion that I cannot prove.

All Holiness has its origin in Eru not in any of His subordinates.

Well, I agree with this to a certain extent. (It would be hard to flatly disagree with this statement and keep any mooring in the text). However...

The Light of the Trees is called 'Holy' which I think relates it to Eru rather than the Valar.

I think that the Valar have been gifted by Eru for the task that they accepted. As part of this they have certain sanctifying power within the confines of Ea. This they can do with the power they have been given inside creation. So while the Valar can render things holy, this does not mean that the object receives a part of the Secret Fire.

Besides, if they could produce the Light themselves why not just conjure up some more...The point is that the Light is limited & grows less & less from the Lamps to the Trees to the Sun & Moon. That implies that the Valar didn't have an endless supply - they couldn't just 'manufacture' it.

This is a very good point.

Perhaps the Valar were given a finite supply of power in order to bring about all the Music and then their task is done. This could mean that it is not given to them to do the same thing twice. It would also explain how the Valar grow weary of the world.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think that light is its own order of creation (for lack of a better way of explaining it). I think that it is something that would be strongly attached to the good and not especially malleable to evil. However, it remains a created thing below Eru. However, this is obviously an opinion that I cannot prove.

I would consider the Light to be the embodiment or manifestation of Eru, much as in Christianity the theological line is that "I am the way and the Light". Arda does not have Christianity, but the similarities in using Light as a theological symbol are too alike to brush aside. And there is textual evidence when Gandalf says he is "A servant of the Secret Fire". Why would he be a servant of anything less than Eru?

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Valar being able to render things holy. For Eru to be able to do this would seem right, but to enable a being which can take physical form to do this seems to pose too many potential problems. Would it mean, conversely, that Morgoth could render something divine? Yes, he does make Orcs and other evil or corrupt creatures, but are they the embodiment of evil much as the Two Trees might the embodiment of good? I'm more comfortable with the idea that there is only one source of divinity and that is Eru.

Of course, it is possible that the theological structure is different. After all, with a pantheon of lesser gods, and evidence that the Elves revered (worshipped?) other figures than Eru, it could have been a more pantheistic world. Yet this still does not 'fit' with events such as the wrongdoing of Saruman in breaking the Light; surely his actions could have been interpreted as trying to break down that essential 'whole', or all-encompassing divinity held by Eru.

[Kuruharan]

I would consider the Light to be the embodiment or manifestation of Eru

There's that word "embodiment" again.

I'm afraid my reading of the quotes I cited above won't allow me to accept that Eru is present in any way that the Children can perceive. They can see the light, so I just don't think that light can be anything other than a created thing.

And there is textual evidence when Gandalf says he is "A servant of the Secret Fire". Why would he be a servant of anything less than Eru?

Well, I don't think he would...but I'm not too clear on what you mean by this.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Valar being able to render things holy. For Eru to be able to do this would seem right, but to enable a being which can take physical form to do this seems to pose too many potential problems. Would it mean, conversely, that Morgoth could render something divine? Yes, he does make Orcs and other evil or corrupt creatures, but are they the embodiment of evil much as the Two Trees might the embodiment of good? I'm more comfortable with the idea that there is only one source of divinity and that is Eru.

I don't see rendering something holy as being the same thing as making it divine. Holiness to me means making something pure (or something being pure) without any sort of taint whatsoever. Being divine means...being divine. I don't think it is the same thing.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Well, I don't think he would...but I'm not too clear on what you mean by this.

I'm working from the premise that the Secret Fire and the Light are the same thing. The imagery of both are similar; the Secret Fire may be another way of expressing Light, or possibly where the Light comes from. If Gandalf would not be a servant of any being less than Eru then being a servant of the Secret Fire must mean Eru is the Secret Fire.

I think I need a theologian to draw up the exact links with Christian ideas here!

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't see rendering something holy as being the same thing as making it divine. Holiness to me means making something pure (or something being pure) without any sort of taint whatsoever. Being divine means...being divine. I don't think it is the same thing.

The only problem with this definition is that if being holy also means being pure and without taint, then many of the Ainur fail, even the 'good'. Surely if holiness is allowable where moral/spirtual failures or mistakes have happened, then what we might see as bad traits or behaviours are actually allowable for 'holy' figures? That seems tangled to me. Or is it a case of 'God's will'? Even if what is done by God seems wrong or cruel to us?

Maybe it is that anything less than Eru can never be as divine or pure. And that would include such items as Palantiri. If so, then there is a message in the creation of and the lust for the Silmarils, almost as if they are 'graven images'; and they do, after all, contain the Light within and as such are representations of it. But I think I need some Christian input here before I draw any more parallels!

[davem]

I don't see the Light as being Eru Himself but as proceeding from Him. It is not His manifestation in Arda but rather his 'power' manifesting there. The Light is the Light which the Secret Fire produces. So, I don't have a problem with the Light being visible to the Eruhini, as it is not the Secret Fire itself which would be visible to them, only the 'effect' of it.

This would show that Saruman has misunderstood, or lost touch with, the truth. The Light may be broken, but not the Secret Fire itself. Saruman seems to have conflated the two. Hence, he has 'left the path of Wisdom'. In the same way, Sauron could (mis)use the Light, as could Feanor, because none of them would actually be (mis)using the Secret Fire itself, only the 'effect' it produces...

I know I'm 'qualifying' my earlier statements in saying this. I can only say that Kuruharan's points have forced my to think more deeply about this question, for which I'm grateful. Also I would refer my fellow Downers to my new sig.....

[Formendacil]

I think it is oversimplistic to think of the fires of Orodruin as the Secret Fire. As with most, it would seem apparent that the Secret Fire is not to found in something so mundane as a volcano. (Let's face it, Melkor couldn't find it in the Void, could he?)

And while bringing this up does stray a bit from the topic (ie. the Chapter) at hand, the original question that brought it up comes back to my mind: What was it about Orodruin that made it so dangerous to things like Rings and Palantiri?

In the case of the Ring, the fact that it was the place of its creation would seem to be reason enough. A sort of a full-circle effect. It was made here, so it can be broken here.

But why was Orodruin selected as the place of the Ring's in the first place? Sauron seems to have definitely had a reason. Furthermore, how does it figure in as being destructive to the Palantiri?

So here's my hypothesis:

In Morgoth's Ring, in the part that gave the book it's title, it tells of how Melkor suffused his power into the hroa of Arda, how Arda became his Ring, prefiguring Sauron's later act with the Ring.

In this part, it says that there is a Melkor-element in all the physical matter of Arda, but that it is there in varying degrees. Silver and water are singled out as being almost unstained by the Melkor-element, whereas gold seems to have been much more heavily concentrated with it, hence Sauron's use of gold to create the One Ring.

Perhaps the Melkor-element in Arda is not only stronger in certain elements, but also in certain places. My theory is that Orodruin was home to a very strong concentration of Melkor-element, which made it very destructive (hence the ability to destroy things otherwise close to unbreakable, eg. the Palantiri), as well as logical place for Sauron to seek out. After all, if he deliberately chose gold as the material for the Ring because of its strong Melkor-element, then it surely stands to reason that he would chose to forge it in a place with a strong Melkor-element.