LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 11 - The Palantír

[Aiwendil]

Kuruharan:

The quotes you give are surely important; but we also have:

'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.'

He is already in it, as well as outside,' said Finrod. 'But indeed the "in-dwelling" and the "out-living" are not in the same mode.'

But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different.

All from the "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" in HoMe X.

So either:

1. Andreth's story of the "Old Hope" is without basis in fact,
2. Tolkien changed his mind at some point, or
3. The statements in Letters are to be taken to refer only to the time of the action of the stories, and there is to be an incarnation of Eru in a later age.

But in any case this has little to do with the question of the Secret Fire and less to do with Mount Doom.

But I think you are right here:

Quote:
Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World and it was called Eä.


Here we have a statement that can be interpreted metaphysically, where the above statements can only be interpreted physically.

I have always thought that the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable was the part of Eru that embodies creativity (i.e. not just the ability to think of things but the power to make, to generate something out of nothing). Cf. Ainulindale:

'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will.'

' . . . And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be'

I do not, then, see the Secret Fire as a great pool of magma beneath the earth's surface; rather, it seems to be the metaphysical power behind Arda's existence.

It also doesn't feel quite right to say that Sauron was harnessing, especially through such mundane means, the Secret Fire - that which Melkor could never find, and which Gandalf names in opposition to the flame of Udun.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

It also doesn't feel quite right to say that Sauron was harnessing, especially through such mundane means, the Secret Fire - that which Melkor could never find, and which Gandalf names in opposition to the flame of Udun.

This is the hinge, I think.

As far as Eru and Arda-- in Tolkien and the great war scroll down and look for "In letter 192". There's a long discourse about a likely catholic interpretation of Tolkien's own statements regarding whether Eru was "in" Arda or not.

[Neithan]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

And speaking of Feanor, I think it's interesting that Gandalf says if he mastered the stone he would... spy on Sauron? no... get instructions from Manwe? no... but that he would view "the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work". I just love that.

Yes the skills of Feanor have always interested me. It is natural for us to think of the Valar as "superior beings", but are they? Sure they have more brute power. And they were wiser and had more knowledge of the world. But Elves (and Men) are the children of Iluvatar and they have their own abilites, and it is possible for them to grow greater in certain skills than the Valar. Feanor is the prime example of this, the Silmarils were beyond the skill of any of the Valar including Melkor. The Noldor, under the instruction of Feanor, also made gems greater than the natural ones made by Aule.

It is chilling to hear Gandalf say, “There is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses.”

Yes, and this is a very interesting statement about the nature of good and evil. Remember that the Ring can not be used for good, it can only do evil. Good things can be used for evil purposes but evil things cannot be used for good purposes.

[davem]

I accept that the statement about the Secret Fire in Valquenta is intended metaphysically, but I still can’t help wondering about the nature of the Fires of Orodruin. They clearly have the capacity to destroy objects of a magical or metaphysical nature. What is the exact nature of those fires. Are we dealing with the physical manifestation of the Secret Fire, in some kind of fea/hroa sense. We could almost think of the creation of Arda as being the prototype of something that reached its perfect expression in the Eruhini.

The Ring has its birth & death in those fires. It is born there & dies there. I’m reminded of the Ouroboros, the serpent with its tail inits mouth. It consumes itself & its ‘motto’ is ‘In my end is my beginning’. It is a circle, like the Ring itself. I’m also wondering about the Ring of Barahir in this context - the twin serpents upholding & consuming a crown of flowers.

We are told the One is drawn back to Sauron, its maker, but is it not also, or rather, drawn back to its place of origin? Is there not some kind of ‘pull’ back to the Fires of its birth? Does the Ring seek some kind of ‘consumation’?

Perhaps Sauron was making use of the spiritual aspect of those fires, so that, without truly realising it he had built into the ring a kind of ‘self-destruct’ mechanism. Does all magic in Middle earth have as its power source the Secret Fire - Eru implies that all the Music will be seen to have its origin in Him - even the themes of Melkor.

This is all specualtion, admittedly, but the Fires of Orodruin, with their source in the heart of the Earth, seem to be more than merely a source of intense heat. They do not merely destroy magical/metaphysical objects - they unmake them. Once it enters into the Fire the Ring is unmade. everything done with it is undone. Sauron loses his being, the Barad dur falls into ruin. It is as though once it ceases to be everything it caused also ceases to be.

The Ring enters the Fire & is unmade. If the Palantiri entered the Fire their fate would be the same - even though no other power in Middle earth could do that to any of those things.

The more I consider it the more of a problem I have with the Ring being destroyed by a merely physical force - a very hot fire. Perhaps the physical aspect of the Ring was destroyed by the physical aspect of the Fire & the ‘spiritual’ or metaphysical aspect by the Secret Fire which is its ‘Fea’.

Orodruin is a place of great significance in that it is the place where the single greatest object of evil comes into being & is brought to nothing. The Ring follows a circular path from the Fire to the Fire. Who or what is the ‘Lord of the Rings’? Sauron, or the One Ring itself - is it not the Ruling Ring - the One Ring to rule them all. In so many ways LotR is the story of the Ring, of its birth & death. If Sauron is its ‘father’ (in a symbolic sense) are not the Fires of Orodruin, arising out of the heart of the earth, its ‘mother’? Is the Ring itself the ‘anti-hero’ of LotR, like Milton’s Satan.

Does Sauron have an inkling of this? Does he really fear that one of his enemies would have the strength to cast the Ring into the flames, or does he really fear that his Ring might have its own motives & desires & be seeking the flames itself, for its own ends?

The Fires from the heart of the earth are the antithesis of all magic. they take it in, consume it, unmake it - whether Rings or Palantiri. That Fire has a power over magic, in fact, over all things that enter it. It consumes magic as Ungoliant consumes Light & vomits forth it’s opposite. It is a mystical place not merely a ‘volcano’. Yet, when its ‘child’ dies it too ‘dies’, blasting itself apart - is this merely a result of the destruction of the Ring or has the Ouroboros finally consumed itself, swallowed itself?

Consumatum est?

[Kuruharan]

Are we dealing with the physical manifestation of the Secret Fire, in some kind of fea/hroa sense.

For me, the quotes I cited above preclude this possibility. I don't believe that Eru was accessible in any manner (for Aiwendil: at least not yet).

We are told the One is drawn back to Sauron, its maker, but is it not also, or rather, drawn back to its place of origin?

Well, I guess I never really thought of it like that...

If Sauron is its ‘father’ (in a symbolic sense) are not the Fires of Orodruin, arising out of the heart of the earth, its ‘mother’?

So the Ring is like a wedding ring between Sauron and Mother Arda?

(I think I may hear Underhill laughing...)

Does Sauron have an inkling of this? Does he really fear that one of his enemies would have the strength to cast the Ring into the flames, or does he really fear that his Ring might have its own motives & desires & be seeking the flames itself, for its own ends?

Uhhhmmmm...

The more I consider it the more of a problem I have with the Ring being destroyed by a merely physical force

Back to something a little less radical...

I don't have a problem with the Ring being destroyed by physical force. It has to do with the way I view "magic" in Middle earth. I view it as being a built in part of the system, and it can be affected by other things in that system. Volcanoes are so incredibly hot that I find it credible that the heat alone could overcome the power of Sauron's spell and destroy the Ring. (Citation: Gandalf says that the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul still being breakable by strength even after he put a spell on it.)

However, I never doubted that Sauron had put his power into the volcano, which undoubtedly increased its potency.

[the phantom]

Orodruin was far more than a natural volcano - Sauron seems to have extended his own power into it, and was able to control its fires. It seems to have lain dormant when Sauron was away from Mordor, and sprung into life when his power grew.

If this is true, then Sauron definitely missed a chance to make himself a bit more difficult to kill. He should've told Mt Doom to cool off once he had forged the Ring. Duh. No super hot fires = a very safe Ring.

Just think about it. If the only way to unmake the Ring was in Mt Doom then what would Gandalf and company have done if Sauron "killed" Mt Doom?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

For me, the quotes I cited above preclude this possibility. I don't believe that Eru was accessible in any manner (for Aiwendil: at least not yet).

Ok. because we've strayed into the metaphysics (if not the theology) of Middle earth, I'll throw out a few of my own speculations - for what they're worth...

The Secret Fire is not Eru Himself, it is the Middle-earth equivalent of the Holy Spirit. It procedes from Eru Illuvatar & burns at the heart of the created World. I see no problem with the idea that it is, in that sense, equivalent to the 'fea' of Arda.

What the Athrabeth refers to is Eru entering physically as well as spiritually into Arda, & becoming a full part of it. The Secret Fire is what animates all things in Arda & is, in essence, what constitutes the individual's fea - like the breath of God which He breathed into Adam.

I don't have a problem with the Ring being destroyed by physical force. It has to do with the way I view "magic" in Middle earth. I view it as being a built in part of the system, and it can be affected by other things in that system. Volcanoes are so incredibly hot that I find it credible that the heat alone could overcome the power of Sauron's spell and destroy the Ring. (Citation: Gandalf says that the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul still being breakable by strength even after he put a spell on it.)

Indeed. The physical door could be destroyed by physical force. The physical aspect of the Ring - its 'hroa' - could be destroyed by the intense physical heat of the Fires. But how could the evil which it embodies - its 'fea' - be destroyed? On entering the Fire it is 'unmade' ie it is totally destroyed. The Ring has this 'dual' aspect - it exists as a physical object & as a locus of spiritual evil. The physical fires destroy the gold, the spiritual fires unmake the evil. I would also speculate that this would be why only those Fires could shatter (unmake) the Palantiri - also physical objects imbued with a 'magical/'spiritual' aspect.