Is The Silmarillion a "downer" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

narfforc · 02-21-2005, 11:16 AM

Yes I agree generally that The Silmarillion is dark and depressing, yet in other ways it has moments of shining light, think of these things;-

1. The all conquering love between Beren and Luthien.

2. The Loyalty of Finrod to the kin of Barahir.

3. The sacrifice of Hurin, for the sake of the future.

4. Fingon`s rescue of his friend Maedhros.

5. Beleg`s rescue of Turin.

Behind all the death and destruction, is a theme of Love, Loyalty, Devotion and Bravery. How many people reading this would die to save a friend, how many people would give up everything, so that this world could be saved. Tolkien knew many such people, he fought beside them in the trenches. There is nothing greater in Tolkiens works than his portrayal of The Noble Spirit, to defy evil at all costs, surely we can see the good in that message. Yes The Silmarillion is sad in most places, yet when I read the heroics I feel my heart burst, just like at The Ride of The Rohirrim at The Battle of The Pelennor Fields.

Formendacil · 02-21-2005, 12:37 PM

The Silmarillion is tragic, but I would not say that it is hopeless. It's reminiscent of Gandalf's line somewhere in the Lord of the Rings about "fighting the long defeat" and how it is not for them to turn back all the tides of evil.

With the rebellion of Melkor, evil became inevitable. It must be fought again and again. And the Silmarillion is the documentation of one of the greatest and most dramatic fights against it.

Ultimately, evil cannot be defeated by force of arms (as in the Lord of the Rings). It can only be defeated temporarily, and that at a cost to those fighting it.

But it must be fought.

That is the message I read out of Tolkien's works, that it is necessary to fight evil, that it is necessary to strive for a better world. Even though we cannot defeat it utterly, we can turn back the tide, and enjoy a brief period of peace, until we finally come to Dagor Dagorath.

It is right and good to resist evil, and we will be rewarded for in the afterlife to come. Turin Turambar is an excellent example of that. His entire life was a useless struggle against evil, but his post-death reward is consistently rumoured to be great. Should not equally great rewards await Finrod, Beren, Thingol, Luthien, Turgon, and others who fought the great fight?

Like the destruction of the Ring, it would seem only a fool's hope, but like the destruction of the Ring, it is ultimately triumphant.

alatar · 02-21-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It is right and good to resist evil, and we will be rewarded for in the afterlife to come. Turin Turambar is an excellent example of that. His entire life was a useless struggle against evil, but his post-death reward is consistently rumoured to be great. Should not equally great rewards await Finrod, Beren, Thingol, Luthien, Turgon, and others who fought the great fight?

Was Turin rewarded? Is that documented somewhere? Wasn't he human (the Travelers) in that he left the confines of the world or something upon death? I would note that Turin's life was one bad day after another; however, he made some poor choices that made the bad worse.

I think that in the Sil what Tolkien was trying to say was that we are all fighting the long defeat and cannot 'win' without divine intervention (Christianity?). Each age starts with promise and hope, yet the 'beings' therein (Elves, Men) fall into the same old ruts, requiring a big battle/intervention to set things aright again. Each age starts a little more removed from Paradise where both 'good' and 'evil' are diluted down a bit so that you can eventually arrive at our present age where the difference between orcs and men is determined by actions, not looks.

Anyway, I didn't think that the Sil was depressing and agree that it might be a bit sad though punctuated with hope, beauty and inspiration. And if you regard the Sil as history, then it might make sense to only read about the big bad stuff as the pleasant day to day peace was a lot less interesting (Feanor's journal entry, Day 223 in Valinor - spent day staring at Two Trees, fell asleep...)

A_Brandybuck · 02-21-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Was Turin rewarded? Is that documented somewhere? Wasn't he human (the Travelers) in that he left the confines of the world or something upon death? I would note that Turin's life was one bad day after another; however, he made some poor choices that made the bad worse.

Indirectly! But he could his plaguer face again in the Last Battle! That should be reward enough. ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoME, The Shaping of Middle-Earth

Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate,(7) and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

alatar · 02-21-2005, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

Indirectly! But he could his plaguer face again in the Last Battle! That should be reward enough. ;-)

No car, no vacation to the shores of Belfalas, no date with an Elvish princess...just more work work work! The man definitely needs a day off.

02-21-2005, 12:37 PM	#2
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	The Silmarillion is tragic, but I would not say that it is hopeless. It's reminiscent of Gandalf's line somewhere in the Lord of the Rings about "fighting the long defeat" and how it is not for them to turn back all the tides of evil. With the rebellion of Melkor, evil became inevitable. It must be fought again and again. And the Silmarillion is the documentation of one of the greatest and most dramatic fights against it. Ultimately, evil cannot be defeated by force of arms (as in the Lord of the Rings). It can only be defeated temporarily, and that at a cost to those fighting it. But it must be fought. That is the message I read out of Tolkien's works, that it is necessary to fight evil, that it is necessary to strive for a better world. Even though we cannot defeat it utterly, we can turn back the tide, and enjoy a brief period of peace, until we finally come to Dagor Dagorath. It is right and good to resist evil, and we will be rewarded for in the afterlife to come. Turin Turambar is an excellent example of that. His entire life was a useless struggle against evil, but his post-death reward is consistently rumoured to be great. Should not equally great rewards await Finrod, Beren, Thingol, Luthien, Turgon, and others who fought the great fight? Like the destruction of the Ring, it would seem only a fool's hope, but like the destruction of the Ring, it is ultimately triumphant. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

02-21-2005, 11:16 AM	#1
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Yes I agree generally that The Silmarillion is dark and depressing, yet in other ways it has moments of shining light, think of these things;- 1. The all conquering love between Beren and Luthien. 2. The Loyalty of Finrod to the kin of Barahir. 3. The sacrifice of Hurin, for the sake of the future. 4. Fingon`s rescue of his friend Maedhros. 5. Beleg`s rescue of Turin. Behind all the death and destruction, is a theme of Love, Loyalty, Devotion and Bravery. How many people reading this would die to save a friend, how many people would give up everything, so that this world could be saved. Tolkien knew many such people, he fought beside them in the trenches. There is nothing greater in Tolkiens works than his portrayal of The Noble Spirit, to defy evil at all costs, surely we can see the good in that message. Yes The Silmarillion is sad in most places, yet when I read the heroics I feel my heart burst, just like at The Ride of The Rohirrim at The Battle of The Pelennor Fields.