Celebrian's Misfortunes

[Ruoutorin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Ruoutorin, rather than debate your rhetorical style, I refer you to Fordim Hedgethistle's thread, Canonicity: The Book or The Reader? where the issue of authorial intentionality was discussed ad finitum, concerning which texts are canonical and which are not and how relevant that term is in discussing Tolkien in particular.

Because what he means is the allusiveness, obviously.

Please do not refer me to any so called "Tolkien Experts" as they are no more experts then you or I and only offer their own opinions as to what Tolkien's intentions were and state them as facts. Unless the author has conducted a recent seance and successfully contacted Tolkien and specifically discussed this issue with him, his opinion is merely that, his opinion.

There are people who have convinced themselves that they have seen the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and they're sure that it is there. That certainly doesn't mean that it really is there. You can convince yourself of anything and really believe it, but that doesn't mean that it's true.

3) A Conclusion: Tolkien does not answer Gorthaur's specific question, and therefore to assume rape is still speculative.

AMEN!
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[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Ruoutorin

Please do not refer me to any so called "Tolkien Experts" as they are no more experts then you or I and only offer their own opinions as to what Tolkien's intentions were and state them as facts. Unless the author has conducted a recent seance and successfully contacted Tolkien and specifically discussed this issue with him, his opinion is merely that, his opinion.

I think that's a false assumption on the whole. To be sure, know one knows exactly what Tolkien's thoughts were, but someone who's thoroughly studied Tolkien's life, opinions and beliefs is going to have an inestimably better idea of what Tolkien meant than a 16 year-old who's just finished reading Lord of the Rings for the first time.

[Ruoutorin]

Originally Posted by Neurion

I think that's a false assumption on the whole. To be sure, know one knows exactly what Tolkien's thoughts were, but someone who's thoroughly studied Tolkien's life, opinions and beliefs is going to have an inestimably better idea of what Tolkien meant than a 16 year-old who's just finished reading Lord of the Rings for the first time.

No matter how much someone has studied Tolkien's works they cannot see into his mind. Perhaps they will catch a trend in Tolkien's way of thinking, but by no means does that give them the right to draw conclusions about what direction Tolkien was headed. You can read Tolkien's books dozens of times, study Tolkien's works extensively, but if you write a sequal to the LotR you cannot put Tolkien's name on it and tell everyone that this is what Tolkien was going to say next.

[The Barrow-Wight]

We're getting off topic. Let's move back to the central theme. There is probably already a discussion of 'Tolkien expertise' somewhere on the Downs. If not, it might make a good new topic if it can be discussed civilly.

[Neurion]

How Celebrian was tormented is unimportant. What is important is the way it impacted her family, and how it affected their actions during the War of the Ring.

[Lalaith]

I'm slightly concerned by the assumption that Elladan and Elrohir could only have been so angry and unforgiving to the Orcs because their mother was raped, or 'disgraced' as one poster put it! This smacks to me of a patriarchal honour system which, while it is certainly exists in various societies, does not seem to have been a feature of Tolkien's elvish culture. Surely any son would feel a need to avenge a mother submitted to torture, irrespective of what that torture actually involved?
I agree with Lush, rape is a war crime, not a sexual act. And I agree with A_Brandybuck - Celebrian's sons felt particularly vengeful because they were the ones who rescued her, and saw her in whatever hideous hell-hole she was being tortured in.

[Neurion]

I don't quite uderstand how this so-called "Patriarchial honour system" changes things.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Neurion

How Celebrian was tormented is unimportant. What is important is the way it impacted her family, and how it affected their actions during the War of the Ring.

Have only skimmed this thread this time around, but this seems to me to be the central point.

In an early draft of the story, we find this version of Celebrian's capture & torment:

On a time long ago, as she passed over the mountains to visit her mother in the land of Lorien, Orcs waylaid the road, & she was taken captive by them & tormented; & though she was rescued by Elrond & his sons, & brought home & tended, & her hurts of body were healed, she lay under a great cloud of fear & she loved Middle earth no longer; so that at last Elrond granted her prayer, & she passed to the Grey Havens & went into the West, never to return.

Compared to the final version in RotK:

In 2509 Celebrian wife of Elrond was journeying to Lorien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound.* She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea.

We see that the in the later version Celebrian's suffering is worse - not only is she tormented, but she recieves a 'poisoned wound' - but the effects of it are less - she simply 'loses all delight in Middle earth as opposed to 'laying under a cloud of fear & loving Middle earth no longer'. What's also interesting is that in the original version she remains in Middle earth until Elrond 'grants her prayer' to be allowed to leave. I don't think this should be interpreted in a 'sexist' way - Elrond being the master in his house & his wife having to await his permission to depart - but rather as showing how committed they were to each other - she held on in Middle earth despite her terrible suffering & the fear she lived under because of her love for her husband. So, finally, Elrond submits & lets her go into the West. He remains out of duty & love of his remaining family - only after the fall of Sauron does he depart to find his wife.

In short, I think there's a danger of getting too caught up in what might or might not have happened to Celebrian at the hands of the Orcs. As Neurion has pointed out, it is the consequences of her sufferings which are important - which is why, I think, Tolkien focussed on them, rather than on a graphic description of what happened to her.

Sorry if I've repeated earlier points...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Then she really was raped if not seemingly.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by davem

As Neurion has pointed out, it is the consequences of her sufferings which are important - which is why, I think, Tolkien focussed on them, rather than on a graphic description of what happened to her.

I am referenced, therefore, I am.