Was Eru a Sadist?

[Saurreg]

Good call Formendacil.

I think any theological reasoning behind the motives of the Christian/Islamic/Jewish God can be applied to the discussion at hand seeing that the two entities are so similar.

I think the reason is because our comprehension on omnipotence is so limited that whenever we are called forth to define it, we can only refer to existing and generally approved examples or sources and reiterate. The same must have occurred to Tolkien and he created Eru and was tasked to define this being. Being a devout catholic it would have much easier for him to draw parallels between his God and his creation either intentionally or not.

Consider this:

1. Both entities were supreme creators that existed before all else and will most probably continue forever

2. Both subjected its people to trials of hardship for various reasons

3. Both operated in mysterious ways that required not the understanding of their people but absolute devotion and trust.

There would be more similarities, but the above three would be the most apparant.

[Guinevere]

I agree with you, Saureg!
Tolkien has translated "the Lord's prayer" and "Hail Mary" to Quenia, and in the latter, "God" is translated as "Eru".

Originally posted by Lalaith
As Olorin has already pointed out, the question of Eru's 'sadism' can be asked of any concept of an omniscient and morally perfect Creator who allows evil and sorrow to exist in his creation.
It is a problem and paradox that has tormented philosophers and theologians since time immemorial.

It seems to me that Tolkien's works, especially the Silmarillion, are partly his own way of pondering over those questions that engage us all: about death and immortality, good and evil, free will and providence and the meaning of suffering and injustice in the world.

[THE Ka]

Estelyn, I agree with your statement whole heartedly.

Eru was an artist, a musician first and foremost, not a sadist!

When I imagine Eru, in a more 'humble' aspect than that of others who portray this figure, I see it like this:

Eru is like an ageless figure who will sit in one area of a room filled with all different sorts of turmoil of every emotion of all these other figures who, like two warring parties will go back and forth at each other as they sit in the foreground of the picture, pensive, but also showing signs of attension to the situation at large and small.

Eru seems like some person who just woke up one day and said, "You know, an experiment sounds good today..." or, " I think i'll fill a gallery today and not show up at first, but come in through the back door and see what happens."

Eru was taking a chance much like with an experiment or a gallery show by not trying to be perfect and subject their subjects and outputs to what they want, but letting things run it's course the way they do. It's like throwing a party and just simply stating on the invites, "Surprise party!" He didn't give his actors and actresses maniplative scripts or topic cards, he let them write their own.

And, to answer the Sadist question, Why would you want to torch or destroy one of your own works? It wasn't really possible for Eru to go out and steal or copy someone elses' work. In my opinion and personal experience in the arts, Eru had it made as being an Original original...

~Ka

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Child

At Weathertop, Frodo was injured by a wraith and, merely because of that simple physical act, he almost became a wraith himself. Maybe it is unfair to raise "if" questions, but this thought has nagged at my mind a long time. What if Frodo had actually turned into a wraith? Unlike the other wraiths, he had not given in to the lure of the Ring. He had not been 'spiritually defeated' if you want to use such words, but had merely been unfortunate enought to suffer a physical injury. How would Frodo have deserved the horrible fate of turning into a wraith? This seems like supreme injustice!

Now that you've mentioned that, it's actually a little disturbing to think it could have happened. It is understandable for us to have such thoughts; after all, people tend to have a lot of doubts about getting into something: Christianity being probably the best example. Faith in Someone unseen is a really difficult concept to understand, more so to practice. There are always a lot of "what if" questions that come to mind at the thought of trusting your life completely to God when you can't even see Him. But I'm straying.

We were not given a window to Frodo's thoughts, but I'm sure earlier on he had nagging doubts about what he has gotten into. Surely more than once he had realized that the freedom of Middle Earth could cost his and his companions' life, but they all continued on. One thing that could have driven them is the belief that there could be no worse than Sauron being completely in control of Middle Earth. Like if Frodo dies, at least he receives the Gift of Men, and he would be released from the fate of Middle Earth whether or not Sauron gets the Ring back.

I believe Eru is ready to come to the rescue of those who follow his 'will'. The fact that Frodo bore his wounds for seventeen days, when a stronger man could have easily died, is a reason to believe that someone powerful is out for his welfare. Because his Quest for the salvation of Middle Earth is in Eru's will, I don't think Eru would let any harm that could forfeit his life come to him before its end. But this raises a barrage of questions...like how about Boromir? Thoughts?