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#1 | ||||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Wonderful posts so far
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After all this, again Theoden doubts Gandalf. It was before in Helm's Deep when Theoden said something like..."If I knew then what I do now, maybe I wouldn't have listened to Gandalf." Now Theoden thinks Gandalf is going to go up their and talk with Saruman, and make an alliance with him.... Quote:
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Some other things I noticed, is Gandalf does warn about Saruman's voice, and we do see it have an effect (on the soldiers) but it seems that he's lost some of his potency. Quote:
Then Theoden... Quote:
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Edit: I meant to answer one of the questions proposed by Estelyn, but I just plump forgot... What would Saruman be able to contribute? Well if he was fully redeemed and he was never going to turn back down the path of evil, and Gandalf could trust him, I would say a lot. Afterall he and Galadriel threw Sauron out of Dol Guldur, grant it he might have grown in power since, but still. On a lighter note, that Voice might come in handy when facing an overwhelming horde of orcs. ![]() Last edited by Boromir88; 02-14-2005 at 08:45 PM. |
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#2 | |||||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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In terms of Middle Earth, I think Tolkien is here describing the effects of sanwe to a certain extent. Saruman here is openly talking rather than projecting thought in any way (although this could also be going on) and he is talking mostsly to Men, who seem the most susceptible to the technique. Gimli resists, and we do not know the reactions of Legolas or the Hobbits, but Saruman is clearly used to talking to men and knows what words to use to persuade them. There is the distinct possibility that Saruman is simply extremely skilled with words, as his statements seem carefully constructed, bringing to mind the way that managers are trained to broach bad news to their staff, by coating criticism in sweeter words. Saruman even begins a plea to Gandalf by offering an apology, followed swiftly by criticism, and then by flattery. It is a classic case of a 'bad news sandwich': Quote:
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The contrast between Grima and Saruman is clear. Grima is confused and desperate and attempts to get himself out of the situation, even if he has no clear idea of exactly how to do this. Saruman is clearly still a little shocked at what the Ents have done: Quote:
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#3 | ||||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
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Wonderful posts, everyone. The first time I read this chapter, I thought only that it contained a dialogue of great substance between the two Wizards. I was deeply moved by the eloquently expressive words; I can almost hear them saying the words themselves complete with feelings. Through your posts I was able to see that there's a certain sadness that envelopes their speech.
It is very interesting that in this chapter, Saruman has used all the weapons he can grasp as he is backed into a corner. As an animal is most dangerous when trapped, Saruman has shown the full extent of the power of his words, not to mention his voice. His speech mirrored that which the devil uses; in this chapter, three weapons in the devil's arsenal are utilized by Saruman -- showing himself to be the Prince of lies. First off is temptation, wherein the devil offers something we may possibly need or want that we are not sure he can really give, so that he can subtly get something else he wants. Quote:
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Deception is the second weapon Saruman has used. This is evident in his voice, as the chapter describes (I will not anymore quote it). From the way he speaks, you would think he is the victim in the whole ordeal, when in reality he is the antagonist. Subtly he forces the people listening to look away from the truth that he is cruel, and thrusts to their faces the lie that he is kind and forgiving. Finally, when he could not get his way in either methods, he goes to Plan C: accusation. He made the house of Eorl responsible for the destruction they might face for refusing him. He accused Eomer of having a poisoned tongue. He accused even the Ents: "...that which help you cannot count on again. You may find the Shadow of the Wood at your own door next: it is wayward, and senseless, and has no love for Men." He accused Gandalf of having intentions like his own. And he accused everyone of being "cut-throats and small rag-tag" that dangle at Gandalf's tail. These words are supposed to produce doubt in each heart that leads to dissension, as well as condemnation. But in the end, Saruman still did not succeed. One thing I realized from this chapter is that just like Gandalf and the rest, I face a similar battle everyday with evil. These same weapons are being used against me, day after day after day. But the question for me is, will I be faint of heart like the Rohirrim? Or will I see through these lies and emerge victorious, like Gandalf did? Last edited by Lhunardawen; 02-25-2005 at 05:48 AM. |
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#4 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Setting the stage for the next chapter...
One of the things Tolkien does so well is setting the stage for the events in the next chapter. Yet he often does it in such a subtle way that the reader is not wholly aware of the importance of his words, or how things will develop later in the tale.
A case in point is the hobbits' conduct and feelings as they sit at the bottom of the steps and listen to the conversation going on 'above' them. Tolkien tells us this: Quote:
Nor is it accidental that Tolkien gave these words to Pippin rather than Merry. This scene foreshadows the one in the next chapter where Pippin, already under the influence of the Stone, is bothered by the fact that Merry was the one chosen to ride with Gandalf. His real reason for this, of course, is his desire to pump information out of Gandalf and, even more, to get closer to the Stone. At the end of this chapter, it is Pippin rather than Merry who goes bounding off to retrieve the ball. And this sets the reader up for the events in the next chapter. Yet I can't help wondering why it was Pippin and not anyone else who ran to retrieve it. Was it Tookish curiosity, pure and simple? Just coincidence? Or is there something "addictive" within the ball that it would actually reach out and touch Pippin's discontented mind even when he was doing nothing more than looking at the Stone from afar? I may be reading too much in here. The palantiri are not inherently evil objects, like the ruling ring or the other rings that fell under its dominion. Yet it often seems dangerous for a mortal to get near any 'magical' object crafted by Elven hands, whether or not the original intent was ill. From other scenes and references in the Legendarium, the palantiri would seem to exercise a negative or even addictive influence when the Stones are wielded by those who are not their rightful owners. This seems especially the case when the user is already discontent and unhappy, the chief example being Denethor. And it is clear from the earlier scene in the chapter that Pippin was already feeling discontent. So was it mere chance, Tookish curiosity, or something more that set Pippin racing after that crazy ball?
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 02-20-2005 at 04:28 AM. |
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#5 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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But I wonder if it is so simple. Perhaps its more a question of 'right'. Only certain individuals hava a 'right' to use 'magical' implements. Certainly we have Aragorn's warning in reference to Anduril:'Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.' The question arises as to whether Saruman himself had a 'right' to use the Palantir. I wonder whether there is more to this issue of 'right' - what constitued such a 'right' & how was it conferrred & by whom? Was there some kind of ceremony or investiture, or at least a 'training course'? Or are we back to the thorny issue of bloodlines. Whether the barrow swords come into this is another question. They were given to the hobbits by Tom & were clearly 'magical', being 'woven about by spells'. It is interesting that all four hobbits carry 'magic' swords & seem not to come to harm as a result - in Merry's case the very opposite. Did Tom 'confer' the blades on the hobbits in some way? Perhaps his defeat of the Barrow Wight gave him some kind of 'authority' over the contents of the Barrow. Which gets me thinking about the way they aquire them in the movie - invested with arms by the last decendant of the Kings of Arnor... |
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#6 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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The interesting thing here is how would anyone know what was and what was not evil? And if it was not evil then how would anyone know how to use an object correctly? If you saw a gold ring in a cave you would never suspect it as evil, just as if you might not think there was anything wrong with playing with Anduril if you saw it propped against a wall outside Meduseld. The palantiri were not made with evil intent, so I would say that to use them with evil intent would be to turn their very nature on its head and risk evil coming from their use. To use them with goodness of heart, which Pippin was not doing, should mean that they would react and respond in the correct manner. If the weapons found in the Barrow were made with the intention of doing great or good deeds, then to use them in this way should also protect the bearer from any possibility of being harmed by their 'magic'.
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#7 | |
Haunting Spirit
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I would not push the guilt to the Palantír, that he attracts Pippin in such a heavy way. The Palantír is indeed a magical thing, but there is nowhere (I hope) an evidence, that he attracts other character in that heavy way. Only using it can have some changings of the psyche of the user.
Rather would I search the guilt by Pippin himself. He is very predestinated from the character for such a deed. Of all Hobbits he seems to be the youngest from character and does many things very imprudently. One event, which is very similar to the Palantír-event, is the story with the stone and the well in Moria. Quote:
Pippin seems to be really vulnerable to those mysterious things. That fit also his character and way of life very well. In the case of the Palantír, it must be similar. A mysterious Stone, what could that be? Just have a short look upon it. A good reason for Gandalf for trying to bring Saruman back on the right way, could be, that Gandalf knows of the circumstances, which have brought Saruman on the wrong way. At the beginning none is evil and Gandalf (Olorin) as an Ainu must know that (if he hadn't forget it in his body). Gandalf mentioned that Saruman was not always evil, he came as a good one (proud, but good). And he knows surely, how the embodying of an Ainu trouble the psyche. Tolkien said in one of his letters (shame on me, I can't find it), that the Istari had to suffer not only the suffers of the body, but have to suffer also in that way, that every Istar is in danger, that he will get stiffened by one goal or strategy how longer he is embodied. The Istar will try everything that he is right in his strategy. The could be a reason of Sarumans refusing attitude. But it could also be the reason, why Gandalf tried to persuade Saruman, because he knows, that it is not Saruman's full failure.
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„I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." |
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