Is Fantasy a dream or an escape? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Luinalatawen · 02-13-2005, 01:59 AM

I remember this thread from a few years ago and, although I didn't reply, it really intrigued me.

I don't think it's one or the other - it seems like such a larger issue to me. I think it's a combination of:

An escape from reality
An expansion of reality
An alternate reality

But this also leads to the question of where fantasy comes from - from the inside (psychological) or from the outside world. Do we expand upon ideas we see in our world, such as war, mythology, good vs. evil, etc. or is it much more imaginative and whimsical? Or both? Seems to me that there are many categories of fantasy and different possible explanations may apply to only certain categories.

Another thought of mine is that fantasy is so obviously a genre that isn't very well-defined. Fantasy and Sci-fi are so often packaged together in one form or another. The two types of books are always positioned next to each other in bookstores. However, I love fantasy but loathe sci-fi. In addition to this, horror doesn't seem like a genre in itself to me. It's more fantasy than anything else. True, it's very dark fantasy.

So, because of the fact that fantasy is so hard to define, would fantasy lose its appeal to us if it were definable? All the themes in fantasy are so out of the box, so what are we saying by trying to put a box around the definition? I myself prefer to stop trying to figure it out, but I can't help but be curious.

Mumak o' Harad · 02-28-2005, 02:13 PM

This topic reminds me of what I read in one of Carlos Castaneda's books (I don't recall which one...) when Don Juan, The Nagual, states that all children are naturally born "wizards", full of extraordinary senses and skills, but it is the modern society who takes the wizardry away from us, especially our parents, when they start to say NO! to everything cool we do, and, therefore, the wizard within us just fades away and we are stuck in this real harsh world lacking of magic and fantasy.

I am happy to say that my parents did not put too many barriers, they let me grow in a world full of fantasy, providing me with all the fantasy material (stories, books, etc) they could afford, even inciting me to write my own stuff; but when I grew up, the school, friends, dates and everything else (no Santa Claus, no Easter bunny...) had put me in the supposedly "right track" and now my life, as yours, is full of responsibilities and seriousness, as I have to deal with many important things on my everyday job (I am a lawyer after all...).

Notwithstanding, I try to separate my "job life" from my "real life" and when I close my office I become a child again and go home to enjoy my PC games, movies, books, music, and I live this fantasy life and really believe it is real (thanks God I found a wife that copes with it all).

But sometimes, people can't deal with the transition between childhood and adulthood and they tend to take the drug way to escape from reality, and that, we all know is very dangerous... I prefer my books!

Considering the above, I got to say that fantasy is, after all, an escape from reality and an alternate reality as well, because if you imagine, you feel and if you feel, it's real!

Lalwendë · 02-28-2005, 03:56 PM

Excellent points, Mumak. Sometimes I wonder why we need fantasy and escapism in general. I have heard that the age group which is the biggest consumer of games (of the Playstation variety, not Ludo) is adults. This is why so many certificate 18 games are released; while the media are up in arms about peddling sex and violence to children they are choosing not to notice that it is grown ups who clamour for this kind of 'escapism'. To me, themes such as car theft aren't such great escapism as I can see that going on in the city around me, but its the essential difference to our mundane lives which attracts people to games as much as it does to horror, or to fantasy itself. A game can give a person the opportunity to pretend they are a little purple dragon or a criminal mastermind or a skateboarding champion for a few hours. A book can also do this, but we would not (always) deride a book or claim it to be dangerous.

So, I think it is in some respects the escape which fantasy can provide which attracts us.

But there is more to it. Something links the seemingly grisly world of games and the dreamlike fantasy such as Tolkien and that is that both do have some grounding in reality. In games we see a hyper-reality; in Tolkien we see a reflection or a mirror of reality. We see characters we can recognise, dilemmas, and landscapes which though fantastic and awesome in scope, are still real. We have mountains covered in white snow, not in purple snow, and we have fantastic creatures which seem just to be bigger versions of our own creatures. I think that recognition is the key. In both, there is to be found a reflection of what we already know.

The difference is that to play a game we don't have to invest much effort (now anyone who is a keen gamer may disagree and point out how many hours they spent on Final Fantasy or something

), but the effort I am talking about is in terms of engaging the imagination. In a game (and in film) it is laid out for us and we only have to switch on the machine to engage in that alternate world. With a book we have to dig deeper and create that world for ourselves. This is one thing which surprises me about fantasy fiction and why Tolkien is so popular;the amount of sheer effort a reader must put into creating this world within themselves is quite awesome. Think about it too much and the almost instinctive act of reading can become a daunting thought.

But this is true of all fiction. If I read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time, then I have to enter the mind of a boy with Asperger's, something which is an alternate reality to me, yet it is in no way a work of fantasy. So perhaps all acts of reading fiction are escapes in some way. Certainly, any novel which includes situations I am not familiar with is in some ways an escape, no matter how 'realistic' the subject matter.

So, I think that both children and adults make full use of escapism, whether it be through reading, games or films, and in ways we might not consider to be escapist. An adult who incessantly reads Sharpe novels is escaping just as much as a child who reads Harry Potter.

THE Ka · 03-12-2005, 12:45 AM

An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need.

Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements.

I'm going with escape on this one. Fantasy is sort of like the "cuddle blanket" of the mind. Like a toddler, we'll find it, invent our intensions concerning it, and eventually carry it around with us.

And then, sometimes, we'll find others with similar blankies, then to sit down and have a brainstorming tea party of sorts...

Not to say it's a bad thing, it should just be used like every great thing and not to a great extent. Or, better put, matter over mind.

~Ka

Imladris · 03-12-2005, 02:13 AM

To me, despite what Tolkien said, Fantasy is neither a dream nor an escape. If it is good Fantasy, it is truth. Fantasy opens the door to a clear perception of reality. For example, evil is clearly identified, clearly described (eg, orcs, Saruon, Saruman, etc).

I am beginning to meld both Fantasy and Story together...I am not sure if that is a correct idea or not. But there are True Stories, as some have mentioned, that do not fall under the modern perception of Fantasy. But I digress....

To me, when we read, we are peering darkly into a mirror so that we may see things as they truly are...we see reality more truly. I do not consider Fantasy/Story an escape from reality....rather an entering into reality and truth.

Maybe that could be considered an escape from the illussions that so often seems to cloud reality in this world...I don't know.

As LMP quoting Tolkien mentioned, fairy is an escape of a prisoner...

littlemanpoet · 03-12-2005, 10:38 PM

Mythic fantasy is story that contains the stuff of myth, legend, and fairy tale; it works like waking dream and nightmare; in it, concrete and abstract, previously distinguished, have been reintegrated; it is apprehended by the reader as a unity of meaning and being; the signal of this apprehension is a sense of wonder or a thrill of horror, or both.

In other words, fantasy in general can be either high or low, or both. The best kind is mythic, and it's about reality, real reality, not the stuff we make up to make ourselves feel safe in our own little made up worlds that we call "real life".

Actually, Imladris, Tolkien said that "fairy story" is about reality .... which means truth. So "yes" to everything you said.

Lalwendë · 07-14-2005, 03:41 AM

I've been reading this article about Harry Potter. I'm not ashamed to say I'm eagerly awaiting Saturday so I can get hold of the latest installment. I laughed when the author of the piece described HP as "diet-Lord of the Rings", but his article is overall quite dismissive of the idea of fantasy and the need to escape.

Quote:

The series paints an unrealistic picture of Britain in 2005.

Quote:

My Harry Potter would certainly not be a part of this world. He'd be more of an urban Harry for 2005.

He might hang round bus-stops late at night wearing a baseball cap and drinking cider.

He might harass the neighbours with his magic powers and end up with an Asbo.

My Harry Potter would probably sell about three copies, though.

What I wanted to ask here is why do people somehow value the gritty, the realistic, over fantasy? As we know, LotR includes many incredibly 'gritty' moments; just because Theoden rides into battle on horseback does not make his death any less 'gritty'. And why would a Harry Potter with an ASBO be more realistic? Despite what the Daily Mail would have us thinking, 99.9% of kids are decent people. And I have to say that for me, a novel about drug users and criminals would be as much 'fantasy' (in it's literal sense) as would a novel about dragons and wizards.

As the writer acknowledges, people want to read fantasy (in the generic sense

). I am disappointed to read AS Byatt's comments (disappointed because I admire her writing) - in my experience people who are obsessed with soaps and so forth are generally not into fantasy at all. These people would probably much rather watch a crime drama than read fantasy fiction; she is just making another cheap dig at the intellectual capabilities of fantasy fans, sadly.

Anyway, anyway, to the point....

As it says in this article, are we all just trying to reclaim our inner child? And if we are, is there anything necessarily wrong with that? Does it demean our intellect?

02-13-2005, 01:59 AM	#1
Luinalatawen Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 122	I remember this thread from a few years ago and, although I didn't reply, it really intrigued me. I don't think it's one or the other - it seems like such a larger issue to me. I think it's a combination of: An escape from reality An expansion of reality An alternate reality But this also leads to the question of where fantasy comes from - from the inside (psychological) or from the outside world. Do we expand upon ideas we see in our world, such as war, mythology, good vs. evil, etc. or is it much more imaginative and whimsical? Or both? Seems to me that there are many categories of fantasy and different possible explanations may apply to only certain categories. Another thought of mine is that fantasy is so obviously a genre that isn't very well-defined. Fantasy and Sci-fi are so often packaged together in one form or another. The two types of books are always positioned next to each other in bookstores. However, I love fantasy but loathe sci-fi. In addition to this, horror doesn't seem like a genre in itself to me. It's more fantasy than anything else. True, it's very dark fantasy. So, because of the fact that fantasy is so hard to define, would fantasy lose its appeal to us if it were definable? All the themes in fantasy are so out of the box, so what are we saying by trying to put a box around the definition? I myself prefer to stop trying to figure it out, but I can't help but be curious. __________________ My philosophy: A chapter of a Tolkien book a day keeps Sauron's hitmen away.

02-28-2005, 02:13 PM	#2
Mumak o' Harad Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brazil Posts: 12	This topic reminds me of what I read in one of Carlos Castaneda's books (I don't recall which one...) when Don Juan, The Nagual, states that all children are naturally born "wizards", full of extraordinary senses and skills, but it is the modern society who takes the wizardry away from us, especially our parents, when they start to say NO! to everything cool we do, and, therefore, the wizard within us just fades away and we are stuck in this real harsh world lacking of magic and fantasy. I am happy to say that my parents did not put too many barriers, they let me grow in a world full of fantasy, providing me with all the fantasy material (stories, books, etc) they could afford, even inciting me to write my own stuff; but when I grew up, the school, friends, dates and everything else (no Santa Claus, no Easter bunny...) had put me in the supposedly "right track" and now my life, as yours, is full of responsibilities and seriousness, as I have to deal with many important things on my everyday job (I am a lawyer after all...). Notwithstanding, I try to separate my "job life" from my "real life" and when I close my office I become a child again and go home to enjoy my PC games, movies, books, music, and I live this fantasy life and really believe it is real (thanks God I found a wife that copes with it all). But sometimes, people can't deal with the transition between childhood and adulthood and they tend to take the drug way to escape from reality, and that, we all know is very dangerous... I prefer my books! Considering the above, I got to say that fantasy is, after all, an escape from reality and an alternate reality as well, because if you imagine, you feel and if you feel, it's real! __________________ "We are jigsaw pieces aligned on the perimeter edge Interlocked through a missing piece..." by Derek Dick (a.k.a. Fish) Last edited by Mumak o' Harad; 02-28-2005 at 02:29 PM.

02-28-2005, 03:56 PM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Excellent points, Mumak. Sometimes I wonder why we need fantasy and escapism in general. I have heard that the age group which is the biggest consumer of games (of the Playstation variety, not Ludo) is adults. This is why so many certificate 18 games are released; while the media are up in arms about peddling sex and violence to children they are choosing not to notice that it is grown ups who clamour for this kind of 'escapism'. To me, themes such as car theft aren't such great escapism as I can see that going on in the city around me, but its the essential difference to our mundane lives which attracts people to games as much as it does to horror, or to fantasy itself. A game can give a person the opportunity to pretend they are a little purple dragon or a criminal mastermind or a skateboarding champion for a few hours. A book can also do this, but we would not (always) deride a book or claim it to be dangerous. So, I think it is in some respects the escape which fantasy can provide which attracts us. But there is more to it. Something links the seemingly grisly world of games and the dreamlike fantasy such as Tolkien and that is that both do have some grounding in reality. In games we see a hyper-reality; in Tolkien we see a reflection or a mirror of reality. We see characters we can recognise, dilemmas, and landscapes which though fantastic and awesome in scope, are still real. We have mountains covered in white snow, not in purple snow, and we have fantastic creatures which seem just to be bigger versions of our own creatures. I think that recognition is the key. In both, there is to be found a reflection of what we already know. The difference is that to play a game we don't have to invest much effort (now anyone who is a keen gamer may disagree and point out how many hours they spent on Final Fantasy or something ), but the effort I am talking about is in terms of engaging the imagination. In a game (and in film) it is laid out for us and we only have to switch on the machine to engage in that alternate world. With a book we have to dig deeper and create that world for ourselves. This is one thing which surprises me about fantasy fiction and why Tolkien is so popular;the amount of sheer effort a reader must put into creating this world within themselves is quite awesome. Think about it too much and the almost instinctive act of reading can become a daunting thought. But this is true of all fiction. If I read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time, then I have to enter the mind of a boy with Asperger's, something which is an alternate reality to me, yet it is in no way a work of fantasy. So perhaps all acts of reading fiction are escapes in some way. Certainly, any novel which includes situations I am not familiar with is in some ways an escape, no matter how 'realistic' the subject matter. So, I think that both children and adults make full use of escapism, whether it be through reading, games or films, and in ways we might not consider to be escapist. An adult who incessantly reads Sharpe novels is escaping just as much as a child who reads Harry Potter. __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-12-2005, 12:45 AM	#4
THE Ka Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: As with the flygja Posts: 1,403	An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need. Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements. I'm going with escape on this one. Fantasy is sort of like the "cuddle blanket" of the mind. Like a toddler, we'll find it, invent our intensions concerning it, and eventually carry it around with us. And then, sometimes, we'll find others with similar blankies, then to sit down and have a brainstorming tea party of sorts... Not to say it's a bad thing, it should just be used like every great thing and not to a great extent. Or, better put, matter over mind. ~Ka __________________ Vinur, vinur skilur tú meg? Veitst tú ongan loyniveg? Hevur tú reikað líka sum eg, í endaleysu tokuni?

03-12-2005, 02:13 AM	#5
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	A dream, an escape, a truth? To me, despite what Tolkien said, Fantasy is neither a dream nor an escape. If it is good Fantasy, it is truth. Fantasy opens the door to a clear perception of reality. For example, evil is clearly identified, clearly described (eg, orcs, Saruon, Saruman, etc). I am beginning to meld both Fantasy and Story together...I am not sure if that is a correct idea or not. But there are True Stories, as some have mentioned, that do not fall under the modern perception of Fantasy. But I digress.... To me, when we read, we are peering darkly into a mirror so that we may see things as they truly are...we see reality more truly. I do not consider Fantasy/Story an escape from reality....rather an entering into reality and truth. Maybe that could be considered an escape from the illussions that so often seems to cloud reality in this world...I don't know. As LMP quoting Tolkien mentioned, fairy is an escape of a prisoner... __________________ I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. I'm your huckleberry.

03-12-2005, 10:38 PM	#6
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	It's the real thing Mythic fantasy is story that contains the stuff of myth, legend, and fairy tale; it works like waking dream and nightmare; in it, concrete and abstract, previously distinguished, have been reintegrated; it is apprehended by the reader as a unity of meaning and being; the signal of this apprehension is a sense of wonder or a thrill of horror, or both. In other words, fantasy in general can be either high or low, or both. The best kind is mythic, and it's about reality, real reality, not the stuff we make up to make ourselves feel safe in our own little made up worlds that we call "real life". Actually, Imladris, Tolkien said that "fairy story" is about reality .... which means truth. So "yes" to everything you said.