If they still had Gandalf... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lolidir · 02-08-2005, 07:29 PM

i have found myself wondering this same thing as well as others. and i have been involved in some other "what if" threads. and one thing that i have been told and have given thought to is the fact that everything happpens for a reason, and everything has a purpose. even the tinyest detail has some sort of importance.

for something as big as Gandlaf dying to be changed would change the entire story. you wouldnt have Gandalf the white. the fellowship would still be together. its hard to say where the story would go because of how huge the change would be but i personally think as for Rohan it would have probably been defeated in Edoras and then at the battle of Pelanor Fields they wouldnt have been able to help, and they played a big part in that. the witch king might not have been defeated as a result of Eowyn not being there. as for Aragorn and Boromir, they would have prolly continued to Minas Tirith and gone to help hold Osgiliath and maybe over run since Gandalf wouldnt have been there to drive away the Nazgul because he was away in Mordor with Frodo. the Hobbits and Gandalf would have continued to Mordor and i have no idea how they would have gone because Gandalf prolly would have gone a totally different way. they prolly wouldnt have found Gollum and then who knows who knows if the ring would even be destroyed then, because it was an accident that it even happened in the first place. as for Legolas and Gimli its hard to say where they would have gone because if they didnt have to rescue Merry and Pippin they prolly wouldnt have gotten so close with Aragorn and might not have been willing to follow him to death.

so really its hard to say anything other than the story would be totally different.
sorry this is so long but i got started and once that heppens its hard to get me to stop.

Ruoutorin · 02-09-2005, 11:15 AM

Not to be controversial, but I don't thing the story would have changed much at all. Middle Earth seems to revolve around fate and destiny and there are characters in Middle Earth that have already seen the general outcomes of events . For instance, it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing. Prophacies by qualified characters in ME (such as elves) can pretty much be taken as gospel. So, IMO, the whole story is already pre-ordained. If Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, I believe that minor details may have been altered slightly, but big events such as the death of Boromir would have still taken place because it is that character's destiny to die.

aelithes · 02-09-2005, 06:06 PM

I agree with Ruoutorin that fate has a part to play in what transpires in LOTR, but it's certainly not absolute, nor does Tolkien wish us to think so; he is careful to not make his characters mere puppets to fate.

The most conspicuous and efficacious piece of evidence for this is that Frodo was in fact foreseen to fail (and fail he did) - it was precisely the compounding of various expressions of 'free will', the anti-fate (e.g., the pity of Bilbo, the pity of Frodo, etc.), that resulted in the ring's inadvertent destruction.

But to get back to the topic! Yes, the matter of still having Gandalf is definitely too big to wrap my head around. The repercussions would've been huge. I can only say that in terms of the Fellowship, it probably would have stayed together rather longer than it actually did. But as Galadriel says, the seduction of the ring would have consumed them all, and I am much more uneasy about Frodo's chance of success if he's surrounded by those who feign friendship while harbouring secret (not-so-secret) desires (Boromir, Aragorn, the rest of the Fellowship, inevitably) as opposed to those whom he is openly suspicious of (e.g., Gollum). It's an inexplicable hunch, but I just think the ring would not have made it closer to its goal than Minas Morgul, if that.

Boromir88 · 02-09-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing.

That is "now man would kill the witch-king," much different then "could."

As for the question, I don't know if much would have changed. If Gandalf goes along, you will still have the uruk attack, which ultimately could end the life of Boromir and the capture of the two hobbits. That means again the fellowship is faced with do they follow Merry and Pippin? If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring WITH Gandalf being there then I think Frodo is along for the ride, because he would have no "desiding force" to have him go to Mordor. Frodo knew what he had to do, he just didn't want to do it, and it took an incident like Boromir falling to madness to get Frodo to realize he had to get out of the Fellowship. If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring, then Frodo doesn't go to Mordor, he'll go with the company. With that being said. Who's to say if Gandalf is there that the same thing won't happen?

The question still will remain, Boromir wants to go to Minas Tirith, Frodo doesn't. I could see Gandalf and Aragorn in letting Frodo be the deciding factor in which way to go. So, Frodo wonders off in the wild, Boromir goes to try to sway him towards Minas Tirith, goes crazy on Frodo, Frodo realizes he has to get away, so he does. Boromir comes back says he lost Frodo, they drastically go searching for him, Boromir stumbles upon Merry and Pippin (as well as a bunch of orcs), dies, Merry and Pippin captured. :breathes:

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-09-2005, 08:38 PM

I wonder if Gandalf could have received his power-up without dying. Given that the primary reason for it was Saruman's treachery and that it came direct from Eru, I don't see why not ...

AragornII · 02-09-2005, 10:08 PM

If Gandalf had been with Frodo, how would they have gotten to Mt. Doom once inside Mordor? I know someone said that Gandalf probably had a different route, but once they were in, weren't like 10,000 orcs between them and Mt. Doom? If Aragorn and Co. hadn't distracted the Eye of Sauron at the Morannon and drew all the orcs away, Frodo and Sam might not have made it through.
Someone might have said this but if Aragorn hadn't gone to Minas Tirith by way of Rohan, he wouldn't have brought the Army of the Dead with him to Pelargir to fight the Corsairs. The Corsairs would have come to Minas Tirith and there would have been no hope. This is why Aragorn couldn't have gone to the Black Gate.

Glirdan · 02-22-2005, 03:51 PM

This is a matter that I've myself have been trying to figure out. Indeed, this is a mojor topic and lots of things would probably have been changed.

In my opinion, I think that Gandalf would probably have sent Pippin with Frodo and Sam and he would've given them directions. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would've went to Rohan and Boromir (see as Gandalf would have been there to stop Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying) and Merry would've gone to Minas Tirith. Also, seeing as Glorfindel prophicised that "no man would kill the witch king", I think Eowyn would still have gone to Minas Tirith. As for the breaking of Saruman's staff breaking, I think Gandalf would still have enough power to break it and Theoden would probably still have died. Another thing, if Boromir did go back to Minas Tirith, Denethor would not have gone crazy.

But like I said, this stuff is only my opinion. Hope no gets offended.

Glirdy

02-08-2005, 07:29 PM	#1
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	Every thing happens for a reason. i have found myself wondering this same thing as well as others. and i have been involved in some other "what if" threads. and one thing that i have been told and have given thought to is the fact that everything happpens for a reason, and everything has a purpose. even the tinyest detail has some sort of importance. for something as big as Gandlaf dying to be changed would change the entire story. you wouldnt have Gandalf the white. the fellowship would still be together. its hard to say where the story would go because of how huge the change would be but i personally think as for Rohan it would have probably been defeated in Edoras and then at the battle of Pelanor Fields they wouldnt have been able to help, and they played a big part in that. the witch king might not have been defeated as a result of Eowyn not being there. as for Aragorn and Boromir, they would have prolly continued to Minas Tirith and gone to help hold Osgiliath and maybe over run since Gandalf wouldnt have been there to drive away the Nazgul because he was away in Mordor with Frodo. the Hobbits and Gandalf would have continued to Mordor and i have no idea how they would have gone because Gandalf prolly would have gone a totally different way. they prolly wouldnt have found Gollum and then who knows who knows if the ring would even be destroyed then, because it was an accident that it even happened in the first place. as for Legolas and Gimli its hard to say where they would have gone because if they didnt have to rescue Merry and Pippin they prolly wouldnt have gotten so close with Aragorn and might not have been willing to follow him to death. so really its hard to say anything other than the story would be totally different. sorry this is so long but i got started and once that heppens its hard to get me to stop. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

02-09-2005, 06:06 PM	#3
aelithes Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 19	I agree with Ruoutorin that fate has a part to play in what transpires in LOTR, but it's certainly not absolute, nor does Tolkien wish us to think so; he is careful to not make his characters mere puppets to fate. The most conspicuous and efficacious piece of evidence for this is that Frodo was in fact foreseen to fail (and fail he did) - it was precisely the compounding of various expressions of 'free will', the anti-fate (e.g., the pity of Bilbo, the pity of Frodo, etc.), that resulted in the ring's inadvertent destruction. But to get back to the topic! Yes, the matter of still having Gandalf is definitely too big to wrap my head around. The repercussions would've been huge. I can only say that in terms of the Fellowship, it probably would have stayed together rather longer than it actually did. But as Galadriel says, the seduction of the ring would have consumed them all, and I am much more uneasy about Frodo's chance of success if he's surrounded by those who feign friendship while harbouring secret (not-so-secret) desires (Boromir, Aragorn, the rest of the Fellowship, inevitably) as opposed to those whom he is openly suspicious of (e.g., Gollum). It's an inexplicable hunch, but I just think the ring would not have made it closer to its goal than Minas Morgul, if that. __________________ Caelum videre iussit et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus.

02-09-2005, 08:38 PM	#5
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I wonder if Gandalf could have received his power-up without dying. Given that the primary reason for it was Saruman's treachery and that it came direct from Eru, I don't see why not ... __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

02-09-2005, 10:08 PM	#6
AragornII Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Concluding negotiations Posts: 103	Just a thought... If Gandalf had been with Frodo, how would they have gotten to Mt. Doom once inside Mordor? I know someone said that Gandalf probably had a different route, but once they were in, weren't like 10,000 orcs between them and Mt. Doom? If Aragorn and Co. hadn't distracted the Eye of Sauron at the Morannon and drew all the orcs away, Frodo and Sam might not have made it through. Someone might have said this but if Aragorn hadn't gone to Minas Tirith by way of Rohan, he wouldn't have brought the Army of the Dead with him to Pelargir to fight the Corsairs. The Corsairs would have come to Minas Tirith and there would have been no hope. This is why Aragorn couldn't have gone to the Black Gate. __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken; The crownless again shall be king.

02-22-2005, 03:51 PM	#7
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	This is a matter that I've myself have been trying to figure out. Indeed, this is a mojor topic and lots of things would probably have been changed. In my opinion, I think that Gandalf would probably have sent Pippin with Frodo and Sam and he would've given them directions. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would've went to Rohan and Boromir (see as Gandalf would have been there to stop Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying) and Merry would've gone to Minas Tirith. Also, seeing as Glorfindel prophicised that "no man would kill the witch king", I think Eowyn would still have gone to Minas Tirith. As for the breaking of Saruman's staff breaking, I think Gandalf would still have enough power to break it and Theoden would probably still have died. Another thing, if Boromir did go back to Minas Tirith, Denethor would not have gone crazy. But like I said, this stuff is only my opinion. Hope no gets offended. Glirdy __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

02-09-2005, 11:15 AM	#2
Ruoutorin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16	Not to be controversial, but I don't thing the story would have changed much at all. Middle Earth seems to revolve around fate and destiny and there are characters in Middle Earth that have already seen the general outcomes of events . For instance, it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing. Prophacies by qualified characters in ME (such as elves) can pretty much be taken as gospel. So, IMO, the whole story is already pre-ordained. If Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, I believe that minor details may have been altered slightly, but big events such as the death of Boromir would have still taken place because it is that character's destiny to die.