LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 09 - Flotsam and Jetsam

[drigel]

Hey,

An enemy no question- Saruman deserved punishment. But (to me), we are thinking as humans in this regard. In our world, there is punishment, justice, etc. But I hesitate to lay that on the ent universe. I think they were there to Stop something, not to Punish. In fact, I will go out on a limb (hehe), and say that, an ent would naturally (or by its nature) not harm any creature, other than an orc, or possibly as self defense.

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

if that makes sense at all.....

[Formendacil]

Quite the discussion going, eh?

Something back earlier in the thread caught my eye, though, so I'm going to take a detour back to it:

Originally Posted by drigel

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

Not necessarily. In fact, I would say not at all. A warden or a gatekeeper is someone who watches over something, who protects it, and makes sure that no trouble comes it it. What's another job that fits that description?

A shepherd. Or maybe a.... tree-herder.

I'll admit that the comparisom isn't exact, but think about it. The Ents would have been well-qualified to take care of Saruman, better qualified than most Elves, Dwarves, or Men I fear. That Saruman eventually talked Treebeard into letting him go isn't so much a proof of Treebeard's weakness as of Saruman's strength. Treebeard, like everyone in middle-earth, is an imperfect creature. He has his Achilles Heel. It's only a matter of time for Saruman to come up with and use the right arguments against him.

[Lalwendë]

On the theme of whether Ents would make good guards:

"There is the water," said Merry. "But Quickbeam and some others are watching it. Not all those posts and pillars in the plain are of Saruman's planting. Quickbeam, I think, is by the rock, near the foot of the stair."

'Yes, a tall grey Ent is there," said Legolas, 'but his arms are at his sides, and he stands as still as a door-tree."

I like this passage and have often wondered what on earth (or Middle Earth) a 'door-tree' could be. It conjours up an image of the home of Legolas in Mirkwood, where the living trees themselves form part of the 'buildings', which is a beautiful idea. I like to think that this is how Lothlorien is 'constructed', by using the existing forms of the trees themselves instead of cutting them down to make structures. It also brings to mind the image of a wrecked Isengard occupied by very tall, very still Ents, finally placid after their rampage. Perhaps then, Ents do make good wardens or guards?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Aiwendil

I don't know - to me it really does seem that the problem between the Ents and Entwives arose primarily from their differing pursuits.

Without getting into this too deeply on a chapter thread, let me add something. You were right to say it's more than "communication" that separated them. But I also think it's not simply different attitude towards nature that led to estrangement. We have other examples and patterns that the Ents and Entwives could have emulated.

For example, it's not unusual for the male and female figures in a mythic/faerie linking to have completely contrasting spheres and interests....even to have set times when they separate from each other and later join again. (Persephone and Hades are a striking example of this, both in terms of differing roles and temperments and the issue of separation.) Even during the separation of such couples, there is an underlying rhythm that keeps them in step so they never lose each other.

In LotR, Tom Bombadil and his wife come to mind. Tom would roam off on his own in the forest but always found his way back to the house that Goldberry kept to enjoy the hearth and the warmth of their relationship. Just like Goldberry, the Entwives insisted on settling down and constructing gardens while the Ents kept rambling. In Treebeard's words,

...we only came to the gardens now and again. Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens, and tilled new fields, and we saw them more seldom. After the Darkness was overthrown the land of the Entwives blossomed richly, and their fields were full of corn. Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest. Yet here we still are, while all the gardens of the Entwives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now.

Differing views of nature and chosen roles in life do play a part in Ent/Entwife separation but even more critical is the fact that both of them have lost a sense of the joint rhythm of their lives. It would have been possible for them to have kept some type of cyclic relationship going where the two partners dance in and out, alternating times of separation and togetherness. After all, gardens do not blossom in the winter, and even a forest that is asleep presumably needs less care! But both genders were too wrapped up in themselves to care about the dance they were supposed to be weaving. In a strange kind of way, I am reminded of the modern couples who put so much of themselves into work that there is nothing left for each other.

It does make one wonder. Given the fact that the Ents had not made a sustained effort to nurture a relation over time and were so easily wooed away from their wives, would they actually have been the best guards of Saruman? Was it simply the Voice of the Wizard that deceived them, or did they have a natural tendency to shut out anything that distracted them from their preferred life path? Taking care of a prisoner would interfere with their desire to wander through the woods so that they might be more likely to shirk their obligations. And unlike the rapid attack on Isengard, being responsible for a prisoner takes sustained commitment over time, something they had trouble with. (These same deficiencies in behavior were just as true of the Entwives, but they are out of the picture now.)

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

To quote an even small portion of Treebeard's quote:

Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest.

The first thing this makes me wonder is if the entwives were physically different from the ents, and to a degree that they would not even be recognized as the same species.

My reason for wondering is that men honored the entwives greatly, but ents were only a legend. If they look fairly similar, I would have a very easy time believing that the masculine version of what's standing right in front of me could be found in the forests to the south, unless the entwives themselves had come to believe that the ents had passed away.

[Lathriel]

Through Ents Tolkien found nature's voice. They are the true protectors of everything that grows. Because this book is fantasy it is able to show things from a natures perspective in a way that could not be managed in fiction (as in non-fiction and historical).
I think one of the main purposes of the ents was to show that not only does evil damage people and their families but that it also damages nature which causes further consequences down the road.
For me the ents make nature more personal. Already I am very conscious of the environment, and always have been. However tha character Treebeard just adds to my belief that preserving nature is extremely important.
Treebeard says himself that the damage caused by Saruman will take many years to heal. Now just think of all the damage we have caused and how long that will take!! Of course the battle between Saruman and the ents also shows that nature will prevail. I'm certain that Tolkien believed in that. However, seeing our world as it is now it will have to take a lot for nature to reconquer (Not counting big storms).
Someone mentioned earlier that the entwives could be compared to Saruman. I would have to dissagree. It is true that the Entwives manipulated growing things. However they still grew things and cultivated many plants and trees to grow. Saruman didn't encourage anything to grow at all. In fact he destroyed every living plant. He caused much destruction, whereas the entwives created many living things.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lathriel -

I agree with you. Whatever their failings, the Entwives were not Saruman. As I've argued before, the estrangement between the Ents and Entwives was something that could be laid on both the genders, and was not solely the fault of the Entwives. Tolkien's whole tone in describing the rift is one of sorrow rather than condemnation. Moreover, Tolkien's loving depiction of the Shire shows that he was not insisting all land be kept in a "virgin" state but accepted the fact that there would be places like the Shire where loving hands would tend the earth.

I did notice one other thing in the chapter which brought a smile to my face. In one part of Pippin's narrative, he uses the term "misty, moisty morning" to describe Isengard. I knew I'd heard those words somewhere before and then I remembered the nursery rhyme:

One Misty Moisty Morning

One misty moisty morning,
When cloudy was the weather,
I chanced to meet an old man,
Clothed all in leather.
He began to compliment
And I began to grin.
How do you do? And how do you do?
And how do you do again?

Or here's a slightly different version:

One misty, moisty, morning,

When cloudy was the weather,

There I met an old man

All clothed in leather,

All clothed in leather,

With a cap under his chin.

How do you do?

And how do you do?

And how do you do again?

So in our search for great and mighty sources, let's not forget the humble nursery rhyme. It's not the first time that JRRT made the link between hobbits and nursery rhymes. (Remember Frodo at the Prancing Pony.)