LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 09 - Flotsam and Jetsam

[Encaitare]

drigel -- Why do you think this? I would disagree, since the Ents have every reason to despise Saruman. He did, after all, fell and burn trees, some of whuch were "friends" to the Ents. I don't think that they would take pity on him without some influence.

[drigel]

Hey,

An enemy no question- Saruman deserved punishment. But (to me), we are thinking as humans in this regard. In our world, there is punishment, justice, etc. But I hesitate to lay that on the ent universe. I think they were there to Stop something, not to Punish. In fact, I will go out on a limb (hehe), and say that, an ent would naturally (or by its nature) not harm any creature, other than an orc, or possibly as self defense.

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

if that makes sense at all.....

[Formendacil]

Quite the discussion going, eh?

Something back earlier in the thread caught my eye, though, so I'm going to take a detour back to it:

Originally Posted by drigel

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

Not necessarily. In fact, I would say not at all. A warden or a gatekeeper is someone who watches over something, who protects it, and makes sure that no trouble comes it it. What's another job that fits that description?

A shepherd. Or maybe a.... tree-herder.

I'll admit that the comparisom isn't exact, but think about it. The Ents would have been well-qualified to take care of Saruman, better qualified than most Elves, Dwarves, or Men I fear. That Saruman eventually talked Treebeard into letting him go isn't so much a proof of Treebeard's weakness as of Saruman's strength. Treebeard, like everyone in middle-earth, is an imperfect creature. He has his Achilles Heel. It's only a matter of time for Saruman to come up with and use the right arguments against him.

[Lalwendë]

On the theme of whether Ents would make good guards:

"There is the water," said Merry. "But Quickbeam and some others are watching it. Not all those posts and pillars in the plain are of Saruman's planting. Quickbeam, I think, is by the rock, near the foot of the stair."

'Yes, a tall grey Ent is there," said Legolas, 'but his arms are at his sides, and he stands as still as a door-tree."

I like this passage and have often wondered what on earth (or Middle Earth) a 'door-tree' could be. It conjours up an image of the home of Legolas in Mirkwood, where the living trees themselves form part of the 'buildings', which is a beautiful idea. I like to think that this is how Lothlorien is 'constructed', by using the existing forms of the trees themselves instead of cutting them down to make structures. It also brings to mind the image of a wrecked Isengard occupied by very tall, very still Ents, finally placid after their rampage. Perhaps then, Ents do make good wardens or guards?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Aiwendil

I don't know - to me it really does seem that the problem between the Ents and Entwives arose primarily from their differing pursuits.

Without getting into this too deeply on a chapter thread, let me add something. You were right to say it's more than "communication" that separated them. But I also think it's not simply different attitude towards nature that led to estrangement. We have other examples and patterns that the Ents and Entwives could have emulated.

For example, it's not unusual for the male and female figures in a mythic/faerie linking to have completely contrasting spheres and interests....even to have set times when they separate from each other and later join again. (Persephone and Hades are a striking example of this, both in terms of differing roles and temperments and the issue of separation.) Even during the separation of such couples, there is an underlying rhythm that keeps them in step so they never lose each other.

In LotR, Tom Bombadil and his wife come to mind. Tom would roam off on his own in the forest but always found his way back to the house that Goldberry kept to enjoy the hearth and the warmth of their relationship. Just like Goldberry, the Entwives insisted on settling down and constructing gardens while the Ents kept rambling. In Treebeard's words,

...we only came to the gardens now and again. Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens, and tilled new fields, and we saw them more seldom. After the Darkness was overthrown the land of the Entwives blossomed richly, and their fields were full of corn. Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest. Yet here we still are, while all the gardens of the Entwives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now.

Differing views of nature and chosen roles in life do play a part in Ent/Entwife separation but even more critical is the fact that both of them have lost a sense of the joint rhythm of their lives. It would have been possible for them to have kept some type of cyclic relationship going where the two partners dance in and out, alternating times of separation and togetherness. After all, gardens do not blossom in the winter, and even a forest that is asleep presumably needs less care! But both genders were too wrapped up in themselves to care about the dance they were supposed to be weaving. In a strange kind of way, I am reminded of the modern couples who put so much of themselves into work that there is nothing left for each other.

It does make one wonder. Given the fact that the Ents had not made a sustained effort to nurture a relation over time and were so easily wooed away from their wives, would they actually have been the best guards of Saruman? Was it simply the Voice of the Wizard that deceived them, or did they have a natural tendency to shut out anything that distracted them from their preferred life path? Taking care of a prisoner would interfere with their desire to wander through the woods so that they might be more likely to shirk their obligations. And unlike the rapid attack on Isengard, being responsible for a prisoner takes sustained commitment over time, something they had trouble with. (These same deficiencies in behavior were just as true of the Entwives, but they are out of the picture now.)

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

To quote an even small portion of Treebeard's quote:

Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest.

The first thing this makes me wonder is if the entwives were physically different from the ents, and to a degree that they would not even be recognized as the same species.

My reason for wondering is that men honored the entwives greatly, but ents were only a legend. If they look fairly similar, I would have a very easy time believing that the masculine version of what's standing right in front of me could be found in the forests to the south, unless the entwives themselves had come to believe that the ents had passed away.

[Lathriel]

Through Ents Tolkien found nature's voice. They are the true protectors of everything that grows. Because this book is fantasy it is able to show things from a natures perspective in a way that could not be managed in fiction (as in non-fiction and historical).
I think one of the main purposes of the ents was to show that not only does evil damage people and their families but that it also damages nature which causes further consequences down the road.
For me the ents make nature more personal. Already I am very conscious of the environment, and always have been. However tha character Treebeard just adds to my belief that preserving nature is extremely important.
Treebeard says himself that the damage caused by Saruman will take many years to heal. Now just think of all the damage we have caused and how long that will take!! Of course the battle between Saruman and the ents also shows that nature will prevail. I'm certain that Tolkien believed in that. However, seeing our world as it is now it will have to take a lot for nature to reconquer (Not counting big storms).
Someone mentioned earlier that the entwives could be compared to Saruman. I would have to dissagree. It is true that the Entwives manipulated growing things. However they still grew things and cultivated many plants and trees to grow. Saruman didn't encourage anything to grow at all. In fact he destroyed every living plant. He caused much destruction, whereas the entwives created many living things.

[davem]

I think what struck me most powerfully in reading this chapter over was Tolkien's barely suppressed exultation at the Ent's frenzy in destroying Isengard. The story almost seems to get away from him & he just indulges in what was clearly a dream he had long had of nature taking its revenge on the Machine. If it could only happen on the page then he would make sure it happened in a most spectacular & memorable way. The Ents are 'roused' & they become monstrous & 'dangerous'. This is not bumbling, rambling Treebeard, this is nature unleashed, taking its pent up anger & fury out on the one who had tried to destroy it. Its something we're beginning to witness all around us & to find ourselves on the recieving end of. Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?

Its as if Tolkien is saying this very thing about us & warning us of our inevitable fate. We've seen devastating floods sweep away our safe, controlled little societies too often of late. Nature is belittled, destroyed, subjected to our will for so long & then comes the backlash, & it's ugly & horrific.

Yet...

What we're witnessing is thebattle we as humans have always been involved in since the dawn of civilisation. Our species vs 'nature'. Talk of 'living in harmony' with nature is delusional. We don't, & can't - that's our tragedy. Our success as a species is based on dominating our environment & wild, uncontrolled nature is a threat to our survival - oh it looks beautiful & is awe-inspiring to visit, but the wilderness is not our home any longer. Civilisation, the Machine, is us, & to that extent we are all little Sarumans, & let us not forget that Saruman himself was merely a 'little' Sauron.

We may exult over the victory of the Ents, but would we wish for their total victory over the Machine? We may side with Tolkien if we don't think too deeply about the implications, but its the Sarumans who have given us nice homes with central heating, cars, TV & computers. Even the copies of Lord of the Rings we've been reading have required trees to be cut down in their millions.

We mustn't be hypocrites. The West made use of the Ents to achieve their goal of defeating Sauron, but nobody was, or more importantly is, 'entirely on their side'. We have seen the 'Last March of the Ents' & it was a temporary victory, Their part in the Great War of the Ring will be remembered - long after they are gone.

Why does Treebeard eventually release Saruman from Orthanc to do more 'mischief'? Who knows. But that's what happened. 'Nature' released us, Homo sapiens, from our long 'captivity' in the trees, & we stood erect & set forth to build civilisations, & create our art, our music, our science. Ever since its been trying to swallow us up again into its long dream, & we've been fighting to stay 'awake'.

In this chapter 'civilisation' - its worst aspects admittedly - has been swept away, but the righteous fury of the Ents can only replace it with the 'dreams of trees'.

Its a sobering chapter, this one. Food for thought......

[drigel]

hoom, hrum, hoom - Ill take a bowl of that!

[Encaitare]

Interesting stuff there, davem.

The whole situation is like seeing an old chain-link fence or car sitting there all rusty and overgrown with weeds. There are twisted vines engulfing the metal, and maybe a few flowers growing there, and the grass has grown up so high that you can't see most of the tires anymore. (This is a much less extreme and less violent comparision, though!)

Nature has a slow, steady way of going about things, but as long as it is still present, it will fight back. We see dandelions growing through cracks in the sidewalk, a bit of chaos thrown in to mess with the order. Sometimes tree roots grow under that same sidewalk and displace it.

Our success as a species is based on dominating our environment & wild, uncontrolled nature is a threat to our survival - oh it looks beautiful & is awe-inspiring to visit, but the wilderness is not our home any longer.

The glorification of wild, violent, uncontrolled nature was common in the Romantic period, just as heavy machinery was beginning to make a presence. In order to "rebel" against this industrialization, certain artists and writers used their talents to make nature out to be an untamable force, as we here see it to be. Whether they thought that this state of unpredictability was actually something that humans ought to live among is not made certain as far as I can recall. Then again, half of them were quite mad, although they made some wonderful work.

Fangorn is not a hospitable place for most, and neither is much of nature for the average person. I, for one, am quite sure that I could not get along very well on my own in the woods. The Ents just want to be left alone, it seems, something that sounds easy enough in theory. But, to reflect it to our own society, as davem said, we've oppressed nature for most of our history.

Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?

To a small extent, I would say yes. Fortunately, I think most of us have some degree of respect for nature. Yet we are a society which loves technology and jumps all over the chance to keep up with the Joneses and get that big-screen TV too. We depend so much on order with all our technology that anything which beyond our control tends to irk us. It's like SpM's sig: "Everyone always complains about the weather, but no one ever does anything about it." We feel like we, as the dominant race, ought to have full control over our environment. What we forget is that there are older things than us inhabiting our world, and greater forces at work, and this was Saruman's mistake too.

[Kuruharan]

Then again, half of them were quite mad

And quite drunk too...

What we're witnessing is thebattle we as humans have always been involved in since the dawn of civilisation. Our species vs 'nature'. Talk of 'living in harmony' with nature is delusional. We don't, & can't - that's our tragedy.

Some of the Native Americans were able to live in harmony with the environment (or at least comparative harmony). I'm not suggesting that it was the idyllic utopian paradise that some would like to believe it was, but still...

[The Saucepan Man]

... to correct a possible misapprehension.

Originally Posted by Encaitare

It's like SpM's sig: "Everyone always complains about the weather, but no one ever does anything about it." We feel like we, as the dominant race, ought to have full control over our environment.

Although it might have originally been intended that way (it is attributed, I believe to Mark Twain), my own reading of my sig is the opposite. We all complain about the weather, but (despite big words) there seem to be few concerted efforts to mitigate the potentially disastrous consequences of our effect on it.

While I am not totally sold on the prophecies of doom in connction with global warming (as the evidence goes both ways), it is certainly food for thought. And davem's comments about this Chapter and what it has to say on the issue also provides food for thought.

[Encaitare]

We all complain about the weather, but (despite big words) there seem to be few concerted efforts to mitigate the potentially disastrous consequences of our effect on it.

Hmm.. different interpretations, completely different meanings. I took it to mean that we're control freaks; it seems you take it to mean that in this case we're just apathetic or ignorant. Do correct me if I'm wrong!

I didn't even get it exactly right, either... that's what I get for being lazy and going by memory.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem -

What a great post! When I read this chapter (and a number of others as well) similar thoughts have crossed my mind.

Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?

I'm of two minds on this. I would like to say no, but I am leaning towards a yes. Still things aren't totally one-sided.

Believe me when I tell you that it used to be even worse than it is today at least in terms of awareness of the kind of danger a Saruman poses. Back in the 50s except for lone voices crying out (and Tolkien was one of a scant few in literary/academic circles) most people were simply unaware of the extent of ecological damage. If there was one aspect of the books that attracted 'sixties college students, it was the sense that Middle-earth was a living, breathing world and the author cared about what happened to it. That seemed so different than what was going on at the time.

In many respects things have improved. There are laws on the books for one thing. Not perfect ones but better than nothing. There are groups trying to protect what's still there, and some species have actually fared better than in the past. Yet, at the same time, the areas of green continue to shrink, acres of rain forests are being burnt to the ground every day, and the list of endangered species grows. Many places of sanctuary I knew when I was a kid have been taken over by cement, something I personally lament.

I know these questions are complex: it's not always so open and shut. How can someone from an industrialized country that's been blessed with comparative wealth look 'poorer' countries in the eye and demand that they wait and find another way that is 'less exploitive'? Sometimes it seems easier just to follow a Saruman.

Sadly, then, I do think Saruman is alive and kicking. When I read LotR it's not Sauron who sends chills up my back. It's Saruman. I have trouble imagining a Sauron taking over things completely in our modern world. I have absolutely no problem imagining a Saruman or two or even more....in government, business, education, and a dozen other situations.

Tolkien was not the most optomistic man in the world, and I can empathize with that. Sometimes it seems that nothing will really change unless we transform our values. And what is the likelihood of that happening? But, if it doesn't happen, what a price there is to pay in the long run. We've already lost so much of the wonder, and every time we hack down a tree, I think we lose another piece. And that lesson is part of the tale Tolkien was weaving in this chapter.