Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Originally Posted by St. Povis

As for Denethor...I mean, come on. He was a power hungry lunatic who {seemingly} resented the return of the true heir and was under tremendous stress for any number of reasons. If not common sense, then common decency would point out that he was just trying to jibe the Gandalf.

From Denethor's POV, Gandalf shows up with some little short guy just after Boromir is found to be dead. Gandalf and Pippin are alive, but Denethor's beloved son is whale food. As far as Denethor may know, Gandalf used Boromir then threw him away when he wasn't part of Gandalf's plan anymore.

Now Gandalf seeks to 'save' Gondor because he has some scheme with Isildur's apparent heir, and so may 'Boromir' Denethor. Plus these two have a big disagreement regarding the Ring's use; Gandalf sends it off to the Nameless One's Magic Mountain via more short guys whereas Denethor would have kept it around for safe-keeping. Note that not all at the Council of Elrond thought that the Frodo option was a great idea.

Denethor, having a bad year, sees Gandalf not on the front line with Faramir (just what is a White Wizard good for anyway?) but in front of him giving him the Witch-King 411 as if Denethor were just some rag tag. So one might expect Denethor to be a bit discourteous.

Originally Posted by St. Povis

Surely I have a healthy dose of favoritism for Gandalf and a bit of distaste for people like Denethor.

Really?!? I didn't notice... You might have noticed that I'm a big fan myself, and so see all things through 'grey-colored' glasses.

Originally Posted by St. Povis

Surely, I have been raised on Good vs Evil=Good will always win.

Not to get too philosophical, but in the short run Good can and does lose in Tolkien's world. Gandalf 'loses' on the Bridge, etc. Can't remember where it is exactly but I think that Tolkien has a character say something like, 'I can turn even Evil into Good not intended' or something - the whole quote by Iluvatar is a bit long and aren't I off topic enough already?

Anyway, Gandalf could have lost (in theory) to the Witch-King if in so doing he helped another character 'grow' (i.e. he could have taken the Ring to Mount Doom himself, but the 'plan' was to inspire the free peoples of ME to kick in.)

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Originally Posted by alatar

Gandalf and Pippin are alive, but Denethor's beloved son is whale food.

Most whales don't eat meat...

Originally Posted by alatar

Not to get too philosophical, but in the short run Good can and does lose in Tolkien's world.

I'd agrue that good loses alot in Middle Earth.

I mean the whole thing starts with Melkor marring the song.

Then after things are set up nice, Melkor takes the elves and corrupts them. He destroys the lamps and then after the Valar set up the nice little trees, Melkor craps all over them with a spider and takes the elves shiny gems.

Elves come over and in a long process more or less lose the War of the Simirals until the Valar finally take pity on them. Gondolin (sp?) one of the brightest cities falls during the war.

Then after all that when finally Melkor is locked up and things look better, Sauron comes along and gets the nice, friendly humans to try and challenge the throne of the Valar and they are destroyed.

We then end up in the Third Age where the most powerful magic items have been corrupted by Sauron and the nine strongest human kings are all Saurons gophers.

Only in the end, on a longshot, does good finally triumph and that only happens because some uppity twisted hobbit doesn't realize he is standing on a ledge over a big pool of lava.

Overall, I think Middle Earth is the story of Good scrapping by despite the fact that the odds are stacked against them.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

Most whales don't eat meat...

It's well known that ME whales, precursors to the modern Orcas, were on the Atkin's diet during the end of the Third Age.

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

I'd agrue that good loses alot in Middle Earth.

Overall, I think Middle Earth is the story of Good scrapping by despite the fact that the odds are stacked against them.

True - it's the long defeat leading up to the final battle where all is set aright; however, it's the good done along the way in spite of a stacked deck which is the cool thing. Gandalf was sent to inspire the MEers not to become like the Witch-King - succumbing to temptation, desiring power, riches, servants, slaves, etc yet remaining unsated and empty.

Gandalf sacrifices himself (the many journeys, the Bridge, hanging out with ragtag, etc) for the benefit of others. The W-K (in a cool scene left out of the movies) rides uncaring over both slave and foe alike. Gandalf would give you a choice whereas the Witch-King's choice was to submit or die.

Anyway, to get back to the thread (somewhat), I would like to see the scene from the book where Gandalf faces the W-K at the gate. After the W-K says his lines, I would love to hear Gandalf say, "Come get some..."

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Originally Posted by alatar

After the W-K says his lines, I would love to hear Gandalf say, "Come get some..."

I can see the scene now for ROTK:EEE (Extended Extended Version)

*Witch King stares Gandalf down after revealing himself at the gate*

Gandalf: Come get some....


*Cue epic battle music ala Duel of the Fates or that music from the Matrix*

*Witch King holds Flaming Sword O' Doom and BFM (Bif Friggin Mace) in battle stance*

*Gandalf begins whirling staff windmill style until it is just a blur. He then launches off the ground Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon style and comes down on the Witch King with a two handed strike that WK barely deflects*

Witch King: You weak pathetic fool! No man of a woman born can defeat me!

Gandalf: Duh!!! I wasn't born of anything, I a freaking Maiar!!!

Witch King: Oh Sh...

*Gandalf lights WK up with an uber-fireball and swings his staff baseball style launching the Flaming WK through the air where he flies out to the battle field and lands atop Gothmog*

Gimil: That still only counts as two....

------------------------

Yeah, I need help!

[St. Povis]

Yes, I'd taken much of that into account, but I still can't change my viewpoint. To me, it is simply that simple...Maiar Istari outranks mortal undead human in all terms. Potential, Wisdom, Memories, Foresight, or just about anything else.

I can pity Denethor to some degree, but not enough to think that he's in the right. In truth, if there's anyone to blame, from my viewpoint, its not Denethor for being disrespectful, but the Valar and Illuvatar for slacking and contriving all sorts of weird rules for their agents when visiting Middle earth. Of course, there'd be a lot less to think about, and consequently, a possible hive mind would develop from having no mysteries to explore, but...

Anyway, that's my half cent's worth of input. From all of the facts I've seen (and I'm not saying I couldn't have overlooked or misunderstood some of them), it seems grossly unlikely that the WK would pose any real threat to the WW. I've written enough about this topic though, and I am realizing that I am developing an unhealthy obsession with this thread, and so its time for me to stop.

[narfforc]

St Povis is correct in my view, A maia in any form is stronger than an undead human, even if it is enhanced by one of their own kind. The only enhancement a Nazgul has, is a ring, given by Sauron, Ok The Lord of The Nazgul has a few more tricks up his sleeve, but when all is said and done, his inherent power is that of The Engwar, whilst although subdued Gandalf was an Ainu.

[narfforc]

"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than ANYTHING you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.

I must say that at this point Gimli wasnt going to The Undying Lands, so Gandalf must have meant ANYTHING in Middle-Earth.