How did Frodo get a second sword? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 04-08-2003, 08:01 AM

I can't resist at this point quoting the passage about the destruction of Merry's sword, as it is, for some reason, one of my favorite passages in LotR.

Quote:

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of the Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

Stronkk · 11-19-2012, 03:51 PM

Like other contributors I think it all comes down to how you read the following passage, which appears shortly after the Attack on Frodo & party at Weathertop.
(It's the passage others have quoted, and I think I can explain specifically why there can be multiple interpretations)

"'Look!' He cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden in the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'the only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King..."

Reading this passage one way, you understand Strider to mean that Frodo must have struck the cloak but missed the Black Rider. In this reading, Strider's is arguing that if Frodo had struck the rider his (Frodo's) sword would have been damaged - and so by inference, Frodo's sword is fine. I think now that this is the correct reading.

Formerly, I read this passage differently, as if Strider was meaning "look; you struck your enemy. But you won't have hurt him [i happen to know from lore I'm not going to quotes references for right now]. All you will have achieved is to ruin your sword." This is the meaning you get if you think that 'it' in 'for it is unharmed,' refers to the Black Rider, not the sword.

Having (mis)understood that Frodo's barrow sword 'perished' in his fight, I was then wondering what sword he had to break at the Ford a bit later. Also why Frodo doesn't get Ill the way Merry does later when he (Merry) does wound the Nazgul. Presumably Frodo's barrow blade would have been capable of wounding a Black Rider, just as Merry's does later - Frodo simply missed.

By the way, I have sometimes wondered why the Balck Riders don't press their attack on Weathertop - it proves to be their best chance to get the ring before Frodo reaches Rivendell. I found:

Tolkien quote - They felt they'd had a narrow escape from one of te few weapons that could harm them http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...=274144#274144

A good discussion of this chapter, especially ideas about the limitations of the Black Riders' powers http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...guest=20181802

cellurdur · 12-19-2012, 04:50 PM

I think it has been answered before, but Frodo's sword never touched the Witch King. If it had then the Witch King would have died there and then.

There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the
Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)-letter 210

So we can imagine that Frodo's blade would have done the same and the Witch King would have fallen down if his flesh had been pierced. Without even mentioning how Frodo's stabbing arm would have become numb.

Juicy-Sweet · 12-19-2012, 11:11 PM

Merry's sword took a little while to perish - Merry cuts the WK's thighs, WK fall, Merry drops the sword. Eowyn then kills the WK. THEN they notice its smoking - so the blade is still there, but smoking. THEN it disappears.

Looking ONLY at thr sword, there should be enough time for a 3-4 swings with the same sword at the WK before it melted.

11-19-2012, 03:51 PM	#2
Stronkk Newly Deceased Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 1	I see why I got confused... Like other contributors I think it all comes down to how you read the following passage, which appears shortly after the Attack on Frodo & party at Weathertop. (It's the passage others have quoted, and I think I can explain specifically why there can be multiple interpretations) "'Look!' He cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden in the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'the only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King..." Reading this passage one way, you understand Strider to mean that Frodo must have struck the cloak but missed the Black Rider. In this reading, Strider's is arguing that if Frodo had struck the rider his (Frodo's) sword would have been damaged - and so by inference, Frodo's sword is fine. I think now that this is the correct reading. Formerly, I read this passage differently, as if Strider was meaning "look; you struck your enemy. But you won't have hurt him [i happen to know from lore I'm not going to quotes references for right now]. All you will have achieved is to ruin your sword." This is the meaning you get if you think that 'it' in 'for it is unharmed,' refers to the Black Rider, not the sword. Having (mis)understood that Frodo's barrow sword 'perished' in his fight, I was then wondering what sword he had to break at the Ford a bit later. Also why Frodo doesn't get Ill the way Merry does later when he (Merry) does wound the Nazgul. Presumably Frodo's barrow blade would have been capable of wounding a Black Rider, just as Merry's does later - Frodo simply missed. By the way, I have sometimes wondered why the Balck Riders don't press their attack on Weathertop - it proves to be their best chance to get the ring before Frodo reaches Rivendell. I found: Tolkien quote - They felt they'd had a narrow escape from one of te few weapons that could harm them http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...=274144#274144 A good discussion of this chapter, especially ideas about the limitations of the Black Riders' powers http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...guest=20181802 Last edited by Stronkk; 11-21-2012 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Found the reference I pereviously mentioned as unfindable

12-19-2012, 04:50 PM	#3
cellurdur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 276	I think it has been answered before, but Frodo's sword never touched the Witch King. If it had then the Witch King would have died there and then. There is no fight. Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20:4 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)-letter 210 So we can imagine that Frodo's blade would have done the same and the Witch King would have fallen down if his flesh had been pierced. Without even mentioning how Frodo's stabbing arm would have become numb.

12-19-2012, 11:11 PM	#4
Juicy-Sweet Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 49	Merry's sword took a little while to perish - Merry cuts the WK's thighs, WK fall, Merry drops the sword. Eowyn then kills the WK. THEN they notice its smoking - so the blade is still there, but smoking. THEN it disappears. Looking ONLY at thr sword, there should be enough time for a 3-4 swings with the same sword at the WK before it melted.