LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 09 - Flotsam and Jetsam

[Kuruharan]

Theoden and Treebeard have been most hurt by Saruman and are “in charge” of lands that he has threatened. By pulling back, Aragorn shows he respects Rohan and is not trying to impede their legitimate interests and plans.

This is particularly true in light of the fact that just a few days before Aragorn had been politely reminded that he was not King of Rohan.

[the phantom]

whether he even attempts anything while the Ent attack is underway. There is no evidence of this...So is it his fear of the violence of the attack which stops him from attempting anything? Or is he simply unable to do anything, as he does not know the way into the minds of the Ents?

I believe the first reason you gave. His death is mere seconds away. It is not the time to try talking. He never had the opportunity to use his voice.

Was it simple fear that prevented Saruman from striking back, or was it that he did not have the words to do it?

I believe he had the words but was unable to use them. This is an opinion, but I believe that had Saruman shown up at the beginning of the entmoot that he would've used his power of speech and smoothed everything over and the ents would've gone back to their groves.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I was struck by how "Flotsam and Jetsam" foreshadows certain wider events in the story and also sets the stage for specific things that will happen in the very next chapter. -Child

I think another example of foreshadowing, or at least of parallel events, in this chapter is the issue of Pippin's brooch (as referenced in Kuruharan's sig). To quote the line in context:

'And here also is your brooch, Pippin,' said Aragorn. 'I have kept it safe, for it is a very precious thing.'

'I know,' said Pippin. 'It was a wrench to let it go; but what else could I do?'

'Nothing else,' answered Aragorn. 'One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters. You did rightly.'

I realise the context and the significance of the treasures in question is completely different, but I have always contrasted Pippin's ability to cast away his brooch with his inability to reliquish the Palantir to Gandalf, and later with Frodo's inability to let go of the Ring. One could even cast backward in time and find a slightly more comparable situation with Thorin and the Arkenstone.

No matter the nature of the treasure, Tolkien always portrays it to be the better part of wisdom to be able to let go.

Sophia

[drigel]

I look at the ent vs Saruman discussion another way. I propose that it was more of the entish character that was the dominant influence in letting Saruman go. Of all creatures of ME, ents were the least likely to cage any creature for any period of time. Something that Saruman might likely know and use against them granted, but the ents letting him go was IMO was inevitable.

[Encaitare]

drigel -- Why do you think this? I would disagree, since the Ents have every reason to despise Saruman. He did, after all, fell and burn trees, some of whuch were "friends" to the Ents. I don't think that they would take pity on him without some influence.

[drigel]

Hey,

An enemy no question- Saruman deserved punishment. But (to me), we are thinking as humans in this regard. In our world, there is punishment, justice, etc. But I hesitate to lay that on the ent universe. I think they were there to Stop something, not to Punish. In fact, I will go out on a limb (hehe), and say that, an ent would naturally (or by its nature) not harm any creature, other than an orc, or possibly as self defense.

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

if that makes sense at all.....

[Formendacil]

Quite the discussion going, eh?

Something back earlier in the thread caught my eye, though, so I'm going to take a detour back to it:

Originally Posted by drigel

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

Not necessarily. In fact, I would say not at all. A warden or a gatekeeper is someone who watches over something, who protects it, and makes sure that no trouble comes it it. What's another job that fits that description?

A shepherd. Or maybe a.... tree-herder.

I'll admit that the comparisom isn't exact, but think about it. The Ents would have been well-qualified to take care of Saruman, better qualified than most Elves, Dwarves, or Men I fear. That Saruman eventually talked Treebeard into letting him go isn't so much a proof of Treebeard's weakness as of Saruman's strength. Treebeard, like everyone in middle-earth, is an imperfect creature. He has his Achilles Heel. It's only a matter of time for Saruman to come up with and use the right arguments against him.

[davem]

I think what struck me most powerfully in reading this chapter over was Tolkien's barely suppressed exultation at the Ent's frenzy in destroying Isengard. The story almost seems to get away from him & he just indulges in what was clearly a dream he had long had of nature taking its revenge on the Machine. If it could only happen on the page then he would make sure it happened in a most spectacular & memorable way. The Ents are 'roused' & they become monstrous & 'dangerous'. This is not bumbling, rambling Treebeard, this is nature unleashed, taking its pent up anger & fury out on the one who had tried to destroy it. Its something we're beginning to witness all around us & to find ourselves on the recieving end of. Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?

Its as if Tolkien is saying this very thing about us & warning us of our inevitable fate. We've seen devastating floods sweep away our safe, controlled little societies too often of late. Nature is belittled, destroyed, subjected to our will for so long & then comes the backlash, & it's ugly & horrific.

Yet...

What we're witnessing is thebattle we as humans have always been involved in since the dawn of civilisation. Our species vs 'nature'. Talk of 'living in harmony' with nature is delusional. We don't, & can't - that's our tragedy. Our success as a species is based on dominating our environment & wild, uncontrolled nature is a threat to our survival - oh it looks beautiful & is awe-inspiring to visit, but the wilderness is not our home any longer. Civilisation, the Machine, is us, & to that extent we are all little Sarumans, & let us not forget that Saruman himself was merely a 'little' Sauron.

We may exult over the victory of the Ents, but would we wish for their total victory over the Machine? We may side with Tolkien if we don't think too deeply about the implications, but its the Sarumans who have given us nice homes with central heating, cars, TV & computers. Even the copies of Lord of the Rings we've been reading have required trees to be cut down in their millions.

We mustn't be hypocrites. The West made use of the Ents to achieve their goal of defeating Sauron, but nobody was, or more importantly is, 'entirely on their side'. We have seen the 'Last March of the Ents' & it was a temporary victory, Their part in the Great War of the Ring will be remembered - long after they are gone.

Why does Treebeard eventually release Saruman from Orthanc to do more 'mischief'? Who knows. But that's what happened. 'Nature' released us, Homo sapiens, from our long 'captivity' in the trees, & we stood erect & set forth to build civilisations, & create our art, our music, our science. Ever since its been trying to swallow us up again into its long dream, & we've been fighting to stay 'awake'.

In this chapter 'civilisation' - its worst aspects admittedly - has been swept away, but the righteous fury of the Ents can only replace it with the 'dreams of trees'.

Its a sobering chapter, this one. Food for thought......

[drigel]

hoom, hrum, hoom - Ill take a bowl of that!