LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 09 - Flotsam and Jetsam

[the phantom]

But the Ents do resist Saruman when they arrive at Isengard, in fact they chase him:

I would not even begin to classify that as resisting Saruman- certainly not in the context of the quote in question-

There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him

The ents were not there to "talk". They were breaking and throwing things and trying to chase Saruman down. Plus there were many of them, far from "alone".

This event does not relate to the quote at all.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

It seems that it takes Saruman some time to get to the ents. Even though they "resist" him at first, they're not really listening at all, they're too focused on their own purposes (namely destroying Isengard). It takes Saruman a while to get Treebeard to listen to him; one gets the sense that though Saruman has been gone from Isengard for a while by the time the remainder of the fellowship arrives back there in ROTK, he did stay there for a pretty good chunk of time. Perhaps Treebeard's taletelling is a way of taking up the time so that Saruman doesn't have opportunity to "bombard" him with his voice. Treebeard is pretty sharp, he may have known that Saruman's vocal prowess was a danger to him, and thus been able to avoid it longer. Once he starts listening and actually paying attention, it seems like he's as vulnerable as the next guy.

Sophia

[Lalwendë]

One Ent alone, as has been shown, could eventually be broken down by Saruman's words, but it did take some considerable time. I think maybe Saruman had to listen to Treebeard, to try to find a way into his head and to learn the right words to use to persuade him to release him. But what I am trying to get at is whether he even attempts anything while the Ent attack is underway. There is no evidence of this, and he clearly does not have any problem in dealing with groups of people - as shown in the next chapter. So is it his fear of the violence of the attack which stops him from attempting anything? Or is he simply unable to do anything, as he does not know the way into the minds of the Ents?

The following line shows how Saruman was totally unprepared for what was coming - he was in fact dealing with his own army at this point and took no account of the other 'army' on his doorstep:

"If Saruman had heard it, he would be a hundred miles away by now, even if he had had to run on his own legs," said Pippin

When the attack happens it clearly catches him off his guard and is something totally unexpected:

I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately

And the following lines suggest that at one time, at least, Saruman may have been able to persuade the Ents in some way (whether in a placatory or sneaky way is not clear) but it seems he may have mistakenly disregarded them:

"The Ents are safe," said Pippin. "He seems at one time to have got round them, but never again. And anyway he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations. He had no plan for them, and there was no time to make any, once they had set to work.

Saruman and Treebeard at one time used to converse together, but this is now far in the past, and it also seems that Treebeard was in some way aware that he had been 'conned' by Saruman many years before. This may have given the Ents, including Treebeard, some knowledge of how Saruman's mind and words worked. But it seems Saruman did not necessarily listen to the Ents, and when it came time for him to defend his stronghold he simply 'did not have the words' to be able to do this; and when he wanted to escape captivity, again he lacked the right words and it took him a long time to learn them.

So the Ents do resist; the very act of their pulling apart Isengard is resistance. Saruman was once their friend, and they would have been very aware of how dangerous he was, so to carry out this act was risky for the Ents. Was it simple fear that prevented Saruman from striking back, or was it that he did not have the words to do it? He resorts in the end to his 'conventional' defences in firing up his underground forges, so he does want to defend Isengard, but these defences were clearly not made to withstand an Ent attack (as they have little effect), which suggests that this was not something he expected, and therefore, something which he could not deal with in the way he would usually deal with an enemy. This is all very fortuitous for the Ents, as they have taken a risk in attacking Isengard, and it is unlucky for Saruman, who had not considered this possible threat.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I was struck by how "Flotsam and Jetsam" foreshadows certain wider events in the story and also sets the stage for specific things that will happen in the very next chapter. Sorry for bringing up future events, but sometimes themes are interconnected, and it's easier to discuss them this way.

Lalwende's earlier quote was a prime example of this:

'Once he [ i.e. Saruman] was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others."

This explanation is critical for the next chapter when Gandalf and crew (minus the hobbits) will go to speak with Saruman. Only by having this advance piece of information can the reader understand Theoden's plight when Saruman lures him with tempting words, and the King seems close to succumbing. Theoden's difficulty in responding to Saruman is not due to any personal weakness, but is a confirmation of what we’ve already learned: “The Voice” can be virtually impossible to resist, even by the great and wise.

As Theoden, Eomer, and Gandalf leave to make plans with Treebeard, Legolas remarks that “the great ones have gone to discuss high matters”. Interestingly, that group does not include the heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor. As if to reinforce the fact that Aragorn wears a “different hat” in this chapter, Pippin gleefully declares that “Strider the Ranger” has returned when he sees his friend smoking pipeweed. Why is this? Why does Aragorn not assert his kingly voice as he does, for example, in the Palantir chapter? The absence of Aragorn's "kingly voice" not only holds true for this chapter but also the next one. Although Aragorn will be physically included in the group that visits Saruman, he says not a single word in Saruman’s presence….indeed he says nothing in the entire chapter.

Why is Aragorn restricted to “official silence” in both these chapters? First, I think he genuinely wanted to stay and talk privately to Merry and Pippin since he and Gimli had chased them over hill and dale, and he genuinely cares about their well being. And I’m certainly glad he did because the conversations with the hobbits were the most delightful parts of the chapter for me.

But I think it’s more than that. This is not the time to be trotting out a future King of Gondor. They all stand within the eye of Sauron’s palantir, which is surely fixed on Isengard. Therefore, anything they can do to downplay Aragorn’s future role is probably wise. There is another reason as well. Theoden and Treebeard have been most hurt by Saruman and are “in charge” of lands that he has threatened. By pulling back, Aragorn shows he respects Rohan and is not trying to impede their legitimate interests and plans. This forebearance will help Theoden and Eomer to trust him as King of Gondor.

Finally, there are two instances of long-term foreshadowing. The most obvious is the discovery of pipeweed. The hobbits gleefully accept their treasure without thinking about what this could really mean. Aragorn smells a possible rat, and notes that “Wormtongue’s may be found in other houses than King Theoden’s”….a clear reference to Lotho.

Second, isn’t it amazing that both Saruman and Sauron owe their defeat to the same basic deficiency: a rigidity in thinking and lack of imagination, a lack of respect for those who oppose them? Sauron can not imagine that anyone would have the audacity to come waltzing in to Mordor under his nose. Saruman strips Isengard of troops because he can’t believe anyone is left who poses a serious threat. Sauron knows a bit about Hobbits, but he does not really respect them as possible enemies. Saruman does exactly the same with the Ents. Pippin talks about Saruman’s shortsightedness. Ironically, many of Pippin's words could also be applied to Sauron in terms of Frodo and Sam:

‘The Ents are safe,’ said Pippin. ‘He seems at one time to have got round them. but never again. And anyways he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations. He had no plan for them, and there was no time to make any, once they had set to work….’

I think it’s equally fair to say that Sauron did not “understand” Sam and Frodo; he had not the slightest idea what would motivate two hobbits to creep into Mordor. And he certainly had no plans for such a contingency.

[Kuruharan]

Theoden and Treebeard have been most hurt by Saruman and are “in charge” of lands that he has threatened. By pulling back, Aragorn shows he respects Rohan and is not trying to impede their legitimate interests and plans.

This is particularly true in light of the fact that just a few days before Aragorn had been politely reminded that he was not King of Rohan.

[the phantom]

whether he even attempts anything while the Ent attack is underway. There is no evidence of this...So is it his fear of the violence of the attack which stops him from attempting anything? Or is he simply unable to do anything, as he does not know the way into the minds of the Ents?

I believe the first reason you gave. His death is mere seconds away. It is not the time to try talking. He never had the opportunity to use his voice.

Was it simple fear that prevented Saruman from striking back, or was it that he did not have the words to do it?

I believe he had the words but was unable to use them. This is an opinion, but I believe that had Saruman shown up at the beginning of the entmoot that he would've used his power of speech and smoothed everything over and the ents would've gone back to their groves.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I was struck by how "Flotsam and Jetsam" foreshadows certain wider events in the story and also sets the stage for specific things that will happen in the very next chapter. -Child

I think another example of foreshadowing, or at least of parallel events, in this chapter is the issue of Pippin's brooch (as referenced in Kuruharan's sig). To quote the line in context:

'And here also is your brooch, Pippin,' said Aragorn. 'I have kept it safe, for it is a very precious thing.'

'I know,' said Pippin. 'It was a wrench to let it go; but what else could I do?'

'Nothing else,' answered Aragorn. 'One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters. You did rightly.'

I realise the context and the significance of the treasures in question is completely different, but I have always contrasted Pippin's ability to cast away his brooch with his inability to reliquish the Palantir to Gandalf, and later with Frodo's inability to let go of the Ring. One could even cast backward in time and find a slightly more comparable situation with Thorin and the Arkenstone.

No matter the nature of the treasure, Tolkien always portrays it to be the better part of wisdom to be able to let go.

Sophia

[drigel]

I look at the ent vs Saruman discussion another way. I propose that it was more of the entish character that was the dominant influence in letting Saruman go. Of all creatures of ME, ents were the least likely to cage any creature for any period of time. Something that Saruman might likely know and use against them granted, but the ents letting him go was IMO was inevitable.