LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 08 - The Road to Isengard

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

I do find the conversation of Legolas & Gimli regarding the Caves interesting for what it tells us about their relationship.
Legolas to be so judgemental & condemnatory. Perhaps his predjudices remain despite all he has learned. Indeed, it seems that Gimli is the 'sensitive' one in this relationship, & Legolas is betraying the Elves' innate (but false) sense of 'superiority' over other races. I wonder if Tolkien is making a point here about his primary creation - they aren't in any way 'ideal' beings. They are smug, controlling & 'holier than thou' to a deeply unhealthy (& unpleasant) degree. Of course, they have their virtues, which at the least balance out such faults, but those faults are there. Legolas needs putting in his place - he is 'talking like a fool' & Gimli is right to point this out to him.

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Although as an "elf-fancier" , Legolas was one of my favourites when I first read the book, even I would admit that he makes his fair share of "silly" and inane remarks. I wouldn't be quite as harsh as davem's character assassination but Elves in general do seem to have a major problem of relating to mortals. Which I guess is understandable - especially since most of them have few dealings with them other than the Dunedain who are the most "elvish" of men - though I wouldn't particulary expect Legolas to be in this category as the Mirkwood elves traded with the "ordinary" Lake men. I would put a lot of this down to the ennui "disengagement" discussed widely elsewhere of the Exiles preparing to return rather than quite such major character flaws. Gildor may have made the dismissive comment about mortals not being their concern but he nevertheless takes steps to safeguard the hobbits as far as he can and to alert Rivendell to their peril.

Other examples of the elf's insensitivity are his flippant comments on Caradhras and his comment that the hobbits should dig a hole if they did not want to climb trees to escape from Orcs. However I cannot think of a similar one after Gimli's rebuke. He becomes a more thoughtful elf and his comments in Minas Tirith - will be far removed from those at Helms deep.

[Lhunardawen]

As a quite shallow person, I find it easy to smile and laugh and giggle at many scenes in the LotR books. But one of the scenes that reached out and tugged at my heartstrings was that of the meeting between the hobbits and Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas, as well as Theoden's polite and humble remarks. I remember myself squirming in my seat, giggling wildly as I read through that part. Until now I find it a great misfortune that what was promised in that scene will be broken in the end. (No need to be specific. Hint: Theoden and Merry )

davem (on Elven Superiority):
I found myself nodding to your words, but I thought I would defend Legolas a bit... At the beginning of the chapter, as Gimli and Legolas met again, the Elf admitted his defeat in their game for he was so glad to see Gimli safe. Do not these words presage that he is letting go of his "superiority" little by little?

[mark12_30]

Gandalf is persistently mysterious throughout this chapter as shown in several quotes following:

‘Hail, Lord of the Mark!’ said Éomer. ‘The dark night has passed and day has come again. But the day has brought strange tidings.’ He turned and gazed in wonder, first at the wood and then at Gandalf. ‘... You are mighty in wizardry, Gandalf the White!’
‘That may be. But if so, I have not shown it yet. "

‘And what may be the answer to your riddle?’ said Théoden.
‘If you would learn that, you should come with me to Isengard’ answered Gandalf....".... There we may see strange things.’

‘Let the Orcs lie,’ said Gandalf. ‘The morning may bring new counsel.’

‘What has become of the miserable Orcs?’ said Legolas.
‘That, I think, no one will ever know,’ said Gandalf.

All that gandalfian mystery makes the next quote all the more fun:

Gandalf laughed long and merrily.

Gandalf lectures Theoden about Old Wives Tales:

‘You need no weapons,’ said Gandalf. ‘These are but herdsmen. They are not enemies, indeed they are not concerned with us at all.’
So it seemed to be; for as he spoke the tall creatures, without a glance at the riders, strode into the wood and vanished.
‘Herdsmen!’ said Théoden. ‘Where are their flocks? What are they, Gandalf? For it is plain that to you, at any rate, they are not strange.’
‘They are the shepherds of the trees,’ answered Gandalf. ‘Is it so long since you listened to tales by the fireside? There are children in your land who, out of the twisted threads of story, could pick the answer to your question. You have seen Ents, O King, Ents out of Fangorn Forest, which in your tongue you call the Entwood. Did you think that the name was given only in idle fancy? Nay, Théoden, it is otherwise: to them you are but the passing tale; all the years from Eorl the Young to Théoden the Old are of little count to them; and all the deeds of your house but a small matter.’

Commentary by the fords of Isen is provided by Eomer...

"Maybe he is boiling all the waters of Isen, and that is why the river runs dry.’

...He always brings me a fond smile.


The lovely glimpses of the distant past:

Partly it was shaped in the making of the mountains, but mighty works the Men of Westernesse had wrought there of old...
Once it had been green and filled with avenues, and groves of fruitful trees, watered by streams that flowed from the mountains to a lake. But no green thing grew there in the latter days of Saruman. ...
It was fashioned by the builders of old, who smoothed the Ring of Isengard, and yet it seemed a thing not made by the craft of Men, but riven from the bones of the earth in the ancient torment of the hills. A peak and isle of rock it was. black and gleaming hard: four mighty piers of many-sided stone were welded into one, but near the summit they opened into gaping horns. their pinnacles sharp as the points of spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five hundred feet above the plain....A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars.

Tolkien's commentary, I think, that the works of any "evil Genius" point to their true and original father:

...for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own. came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child’s model or a slave’s flattery, of that vast fortress. armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr...

"Two hundred leagues, through fen and forest, battle and death, to rescue you! "

I think I finally figured out that a "league"-- three miles-- is the distance a normal footsoldier or a man travels in an hour. When Gimli says two hundred leagues, that's in essence saying 'two hundred hours worth' of travel, although they ran and rode much of it. Still, Gimli's indignation is easier to understand if we imagine it in those terms. How long would it take me to travel two hundred leagues-- six hundred miles? Frodo traveled 17 miles a day from Bag End to Rivendell. Maybe I could make twenty, if I was lucky. It would take me .... hmmmm... (mark12_30 does some calculations on fingers) Thirty days? To find my quarry 'feasting and idling and smoking. Smoking!'

Theoden, bless him, takes Gandalf's words about the legends of the past, to heart:

"The days are fated to be filled with marvels. Already I have seen many since I left my house; and now here before my eyes stand yet another of the folk of legend. Are not these the Halflings, that some among us call the Holbytlan?’

It seems significant to me that Pippin remained in his napping posture until he heard Theoden's comment:

"No report that I have heard does justice to the truth.’
Merry bowed; and Pippin got up and bowed low.

Merry had been busy being polite this whole time. Pippin had been (for a hobbit) extremely un-polite! Still flat on his back! But at this moment, he both stands, and then bows low.

Merry is magnificent and delightful, polite, astute, and shrewd:

‘He left a message,’ said Merry, ‘and I was coming to it, but I have been hindered by many other questions. I was to say that, if the Lord of the Mark and Gandalf will ride to the northern wall they will find Treebeard there, and he will welcome them. I may add that they will also find food of the best there, it was discovered and selected by your humble servants.’ He bowed.

Gandalf:

For Treebeard is Fangorn, and the eldest and chief of the Ents, and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things.’

I wonder. When Gandalf says "living things", is he implying that Ents are 'things'-- body first, soul second? As opposed to, say, a Maia or a Vala, who was spirit first, then body? Maybe I'm being affected by Morsul the Dark's theory that Ents turn into trees in order to 'die'... But Ents, it seems to me, are wood first, speakers second. Whereas Maia and Vala are speakers first, and flesh second. (I suspect also that Tom Bombadil might fit into this category... just a thought.) Anyway, maybe when Gandalf says "you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things" maybe he's talking about the oldest Thing that has 'come to life'-- not the oldest being (which would be those beings that had spirits before Arda was made.) So maybe Tom is the Oldest spirit clothed with a body, but Treebeard is the oldest Object-turned-sentient.

[Guinevere]

I made notes about what moved me and interested me most in this chapter-
the conversation of Gandalf and Théoden about the Ents and the "fireside tales" and the sadness because much that is fair and wonderful will pass away.
but I see that Lalwendë has written exactly about that and I couldn't agree more!
This passage is so typical for Tolkien - it relates to the story and yet it is a truth. The Ents have passed away and only the unexplained word is left in some old texts - Tolkien had to re-invent a meaning.

I was also moved by Gimli's description of Aglarond - it shows that he has the soul of a poet! Here we see how he and Legolas have become friends indeed. It is so important to them to share what they delight in, that they will overcome their reluctance to strange places.

Davem wrote:
I do find the conversation of Legolas & Gimli regarding the Caves interesting for what it tells us about their relationship. For all their friendship Legloas still clearly sees Gimli as materialistic & fails to understand that his friend could have anything more than a mercenary interest in the Caves' contents.

Well, my impression was that Legolas had this opinion of dwarves in general, but not about Gimli, who seems to him an exeption in his appreciation of beauty.
"But do not tell all your kindred!" he warns him.
I agree with Davem about the Elves general sense of "superiority", but I feel this more about Gildor, or Haldir, or Lindir in Rivendell... Legolas himself never strikes me as particularly smug or "holier than thou". I rather think he is really quite modest - he is just "Legolas the Elf" and never mentions that he is the son of a king, and readily accepts Aragorn as his leader.


But there is one thing in this chapter that makes me wonder:
When the company have reached the Fords of the Isen, Théoden says:

"Alas! Must we pass this way where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?"

and then Gandalf shows them the mound on the islet

"Here lie all the Men of the Mark that fell near this place," said Gandalf.
"Here let them rest!" said Éomer. "And when their spears have rotted and rusted, long still may their mound stand and guard the Fords of Isen!"

Why on Earth is Théodred never mentioned ? After all, it is here that the king's son fell, and to go by U.T., he must also be buried here ! (His last words were: "Let me lie here until Éomer comes!") Already in the preceding chapters I thought it rather strange that Théoden doesn't mourn for his son. (Only Grima mentions his death) And now he passes his grave (or at least the place where he fell) and not one word about Théodred!
(Perhaps Movie-théoden overdid it a bit, but on the whole I thought that it was a good idea in the movie to show Théodred's funeral and his father's grief.)

Has anyone an explanation for this?