The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-05-2005, 03:41 PM   #1
Garen LiLorian
Wight
 
Garen LiLorian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The frigid white wilderness of the Midwest
Posts: 235
Garen LiLorian has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Garen LiLorian
Edit; Whoops, cross-posted with Elianna
The character who leaps to my mind for this archtype is Bombadil,
Quote:
an elemental, whimsical being, whose integration into human society is only partial. There is a dichotomy in his nature, which prevents his ever breaking entirely free of his chaotic, primordial mould.
This fits pretty well.
Quote:
He knows neither good nor evil yet he is responsible for both.
This is also represented in the text, though it is a little less obvious. It is obvious that he is responsible for good, through helping the hobbits, however at the council of Elrond Gandalf says he would not take the ring
Quote:
"...willingly. He might do so, if all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away."
This seems to indicate he has no knowledge (or care, which is probably a better way of putting it) for 'good' or 'evil' as the outside world defines them. It could also be stated that he is responsible for evil, as he is Master of the Old Forest, an area feared as evil by the Hobbits.

Several of the Trickster's defining qualities
Quote:
"At times, he is constrained to behave as he does from impulses over which he has no control," " is at the mercy of his passions and appetites" "a malignant tease"
are noticably missing from Bombadil, however. They show up quite nicely in Gollum, however, as Encaitare points out. Gollum also has the whole "responsible for both good and evil" thing going, although I wouldn't agree with the case that he doesn't know them. I also agree with Enca that Gollum doesn't count as a culture hero, though I guess that one's open to debate. In the context of LotR as a myth, Gollum has a pretty good hold on a trickster archtype. However, in the context of Middle-Earth itself, I still like Bombadil.

In the end, although Bombadil has many aspects of the Trickster, he is clearly a cleaned-up one. This makes some element of sense, as Tolkien's world is quite a bit more (can't quite find the right word...) socially acceptable than the sex-and-gore world that the Trickster largely inhabits in various cultural mythologies. Tolkien also (at least in LotR) takes some pains to delineate the boundary between good and evil, and someone so ambiguous as the Trickster archtype could not reasonably exist in all his full glory in the context of LotR. (IMHO, at least)
__________________
This is my quest, to follow that star; no matter how hopeless, no matter how far. To fight for the right, without question or pause. To be willing to march into Hell for a Heavenly cause! -Man of La Mancha

Last edited by Garen LiLorian; 02-05-2005 at 03:51 PM. Reason: cross posting!!
Garen LiLorian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2005, 05:48 PM   #2
Lathriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lathriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
Lathriel has just left Hobbiton.
At first I was thinking of Sauron. However when it said
Quote:
He doesn't know the difference between right or wrong
I thought of Gollum. he doesn't think of right or wrong. He only follows his own desires, mainy his desire for the ring.
Also he truly is a trickster. he tricked the elves of Mirkwood who held him prisoner. He also tricked Frodo and Sam when he led them into Shelob's Lair.
__________________
Back again
Lathriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2005, 10:32 PM   #3
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Tolkien

I second, or rather, third the motion nominating Bombadil.

I also find some element of The Trickster in Bombadil's enigmatic nature.

However, I also agree with Encaitare that no character in the stories completely fits the bill.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2005, 12:35 AM   #4
Evisse the Blue
Brightness of a Blade
 
Evisse the Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: wherever I may roam
Posts: 2,685
Evisse the Blue has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Evisse the Blue Send a message via Yahoo to Evisse the Blue Send a message via Skype™ to Evisse the Blue
Indeed the similarities with Tom Bombadil are striking. The parts that do not fit may be because we know this character too little, or they haven't had a chance to manifest themselves in the given situations.
Even the part about him not having control over impulses being a subject of his passions (notice that it says 'at times'). And impulses and passions don't necessarily have an evil connotation, so I can see Tom Bombadil behaving impulsively.

The only problem I see is that Tom appears too little in the story so that he could be perfectly equivalent to the Trickster character. Tricksters usually play a predominant role, and their actions lead to major events. While Bombadil just prefers to be out of the way and is unconcerned with 'greater matters' such as the Ring.
So I agree with Garen on this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garen LiLorian
In the context of LotR as a myth, Gollum has a pretty good hold on a trickster archtype.
In any case, it's strange how this very interesting quote could lead to comparing two so different characters such as Gollum and Tom Bombadil!
__________________
And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.
Evisse the Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2005, 04:04 AM   #5
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I think, as others have said, there are a few characters who manifest the Trickster archetype in LotR. In fact, if we take into account the early drafts, Bingo plays the role to an extent in his encounter with Farmer Maggot, wearing the Ring & drinking a mug of beer, & running off with the farmer's hat!

If we look at The Hobbit we see Gandalf playing the same kind of role when he turns up at the start & tricks Bilbo into joining the Quest of Erebor.

Its almost as if the Archetype 'overshadows' various characters at various times, rather than any one of them being The Trickster throughout. I wonder if its not misleading to look for a single character personifying any archetype in Tolkien's world. Chrysophylax plays something of the same role in Giles, as does Alf in Smith.

Perhaps the Archetype in its 'pure' form was too powerful & dangerous (as well as uncouth) a figure for Tolkien to be entirely comfortable with giving him his head. Bombadil very nearly got away from him, after all, & had to be carefully restricted to his own little land to stop him running riot. Tolkien was very careful in his use of the 'purer' mythological & psychological Archetypes - for instance, its very significant that in a mythology which makes such strong use of 'Northern' myth he carefully avoids the use of ravens. They pop up only in a minor way in the Hobbit, & this is probably because of all the incredibly dark connotations they have in Norse & Celtic myth.

I suppose Tolkien was walking a fine line in his own mind between recreating what had been lost, & producing what to him would have seemed something dangerously atavistic. The Archetypes had to be presented in a 'civilised' form, they had to be 'dealable' with for a modern audience, & principally they had to conform to his Christian worldview. The Trickster has no place in orthodox Christianity.....
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:19 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.