New dudes and dudettes: Most annoying things about LOTR.

[Boromir88]

Aragorn's arrival at the Pelennor is not nearly as dramatic as it could be. I don't think any explanation was provided, either.

It's a Deus Ex Machina, latin for "God of the machines." When directors are stuck trying to solve a plot conflict they bring in supernatural beings (often from a godlike figure) to solve it. It's a rather sloppy way of ending something if you are stuck. Don't know why they didn't add in the men from Lebennin, maybe PJ thought it would be too confusing if Aragorn all of a sudden appeared with Men on the ship.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's a Deus Ex Machina, latin for "God of the machines." When directors are stuck trying to solve a plot conflict they bring in supernatural beings (often from a godlike figure) to solve it.

Not that Tolkien would ever have dreamed of using such a technique ...

[Boromir88]

Not that Tolkien would ever have dreamed of using such a technique ...

Tolkien is a strong religious man that incorporates religion throughout his writings. Jackson just threw in the Army of the Dead to simplify things.

Also, Tolkien backs up his instances. One, these supernatural creatures are not the main cause for saving the day. Eagles are in control of Manwe, and help out when they feel like it. Army of the Dead just wanted to stop being cursed. Two, in the instant of Eru still caring about Middle-earth and destroying the ring....I'm assuming since Tolkien wrote in that one moment, when Frodo has to choose between destroying the ring, or claiming it, is when the ring is it's strongest and doubted whether anyone would be able to throw it in. So, how does he destroy it? Adds in help from the godlike figure.

Many critics of Tolkien criticize him for that. Using those reasons of Deus Ex Machina to say he's a bad writer. I don't agree with them, but everyone likes different stlyes. All I can say is with Tolkien it's something that we should expect, being a man with religious background, as well as a Mythology lover. Jackson added in the AotD for a quick solution, and to not have an audience (besides the bookfans) wonder, where did all these men come from?

Lastly, on the screen it appears much differently. Again, it feels rushed and sloppy. It's like, we're stuck, we don't want people to be confused about where these men showed up, so lets just have these ghosts wipe out the rest.

When reading, you can't say "The eagles saved the day on the Morannon," you can't say "The Army of the Dead saved the day on Pelennor." You can say "Eru saved Middle-earth," and is indeed a Deus Ex Machina, but the Mount Doom chapter is far from rushed.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, I was being half-flippant. There is a basis for arguing that Tolkien does not use Deus ex Machina at all, or at least that he uses it in a credible and therefore justifiable manner. Here's an interesting thread with some further discussion on the issue:

Deus ex Machina

Obviously, Jackson has carte blanche to use the Army of the Dead, as they are in the book. And, as in the book, their use is foreshadowed by Aragorn and co's journey through the Paths of the Dead, so they do not simply appear unannounced (which is, on one view, a requirement of a "Deus ex Machina"). To simplify things, he included them in the Pelennor. I have no problem with that per se. But I have some sympathy with the criticism based on the manner in which they are used. They are simply too destructive, so that they end up winning the battle and saving the day, rather than the men of Rohan and Gondor.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Don't know why they didn't add in the men from Lebennin, maybe PJ thought it would be too confusing if Aragorn all of a sudden appeared with Men on the ship.

How hard would it have been to include 'slaves' on the ships (show one prototype like Kevin Sorbo aka "Hercules" from the TV show) that after the attack of the AotD are suddenly (in the next shot) in control of the ships, and follow behind Aragorn etc when they de-boat at the harbor? It could be twenty ex-slaves, yet it would show that Aragorn was gathering people (humans) together wherever he went. The Undead could still go about with their green blob attack.

PJ even could have included another 'crisis' moment where Aragorn wonders if he would be in time, where he even takes a hand at the oars then Legolas could have said something funny about Gimli's beard. We get Gothmog, Lurtz etc but no Halbarad, Forlong etc.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by alatar

We get Gothmog, Lurtz etc but no Halbarad, Forlong etc.

Man, that just annoys the heck out of me! Where are the Gondorian (and Arnorian) secondary characters!?!?

I could care less about whether the orcs have a field commander suffering from Reckinghausen's disease, or a lieutenant with a skull on his head. I wanted to see Imrahil, Beregond and Halbarad!!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Man, that just annoys the heck out of me! Where are the Gondorian (and Arnorian) secondary characters!?!?

Except for that guy who hangs around Faramir, they (the Gondorian Silverados) look like clones. I wouldn't care if they weren't even mentioned - PJ, at least give them some individuality! I think that that was better handled with the Rohirrim...hmmm.

Wait a moment! Rohan gets Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn, Wormtongue, the guy who dresses Theoden in armor, that little boy with the too big sword, the little kids on horseback and their mother, etc - am I forgetting anyone?

Gondor gets Denethor of the poor table manners, Faramir, Boromir (for a little while), that guy who hangs around Faramir, the guy who gets shot during the Orc reverse D-Day invasion - can't think of anyone else as no one sticks out in my mind (admittedly I haven't watched ROTK EE as much as TTT EE).

So Gondor was shorted just a *few* extras. Conspiracy!

[Essex]

re SpM point on the Army of the Dead

They are simply too destructive, so that they end up winning the battle and saving the day, rather than the men of Rohan and Gondor.

To me the most important thing that happened in the whole of the Battle of Pellonor fields was the killing of the Witch King by Merry and Eoywn. THIS to me is what 'saved the day' for Minas Tirith. Yes, Aragorn and his troops also assisted in polishing off the hordes or Orcs, but, in ANY battle, one of the Key Objectives is to kill the Commander of the opposing troops. When this is done, a lot of the time an army can fall into dissaray with no leadership.

Therefore, in my humble opinion, Merry and Eowyn save Minas Tirith (and as I have pointed out a few times before in other threads, via the Domino effect, greatly assist in saving Middle-earth)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

but, in ANY battle, one of the Key Objectives is to kill the Commander of the opposing troops.

Never saw it that way before, but it makes perfect sense now.

Originally Posted by Essex

via the Domino effect

Don't you mean the Dominic (Monaghan) effect?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally Posted by alatar

How hard would it have been to include 'slaves' on the ships (show one prototype like Kevin Sorbo aka "Hercules" from the TV show) that after the attack of the AotD are suddenly (in the next shot) in control of the ships, and follow behind Aragorn etc when they de-boat at the harbor? It could be twenty ex-slaves, yet it would show that Aragorn was gathering people (humans) together wherever he went. The Undead could still go about with their green blob attack.

But i don't think really in the book Slaves were mentioned being used by the Corsairs... orignally only the Army of the dead do was help the men at Lebennin with the corairs then left, so Aragorn had about 300 men with him as reinforcements...