LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 07 - Helm's Deep

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

Finally, this Chapter contains one of the most (unintentionally) funny lines in the book:

Quote:
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.

I wonder who was driving?

Who was driving? Depends if it was a black van; in which case, probably Mr T.

Originally Posted by SpM

As far as the depiction of the battle is concerned, I do think that Aiwendil hit the nail on the head when he described it as a series of linked dramatic events (see his post #6 above). It is portrayed as a series of incidents, each involving the principal characters, linked by a general description of the battle's progress, in particular the development of the Orcs' assault. It struck me that this is similar to the way that a battle might be portrayed on film - as a series of encounters/incidents linked by overview shots of the battle. Tolkien's skill as a story-teller enables him to deploy this technique to marvellous effect in this Chapter.

That's a very good point about the same technique being used in films. It brings to mind war films, where the action of a battle is often best portrayed via the experiences of various combatants; we can 'see' the battle as those involved see it, from the point of view of those who die or are injured, and from those who survive, which enables us not only to follow the 'story' of the battle but also to gain something of how it might have felt to be involved.

Strangely enough, this film technique could almost be applied to LotR in general, as we 'see' Middle Earth through various eyes. We are never in one place for very long (the chapters are shorter than you might expect for an 'epic' novel), and successive chapters with a lot of exposition are often linked by others which take us along on a journey to the next part of the story. It is an episodic novel in this respect, yet with a strong underlying feature in that we are taking the journey and discovering the landscape of Middle Earth along with the characters.

[Aiwendil]

Lalwende wrote:

That's a very good point about the same technique being used in films. It brings to mind war films, where the action of a battle is often best portrayed via the experiences of various combatants; we can 'see' the battle as those involved see it, from the point of view of those who die or are injured, and from those who survive, which enables us not only to follow the 'story' of the battle but also to gain something of how it might have felt to be involved.

I think that this is largely true. But I would also note that this plotted-battle technique is not something that all or even most films do (though perhaps it's something that good ones do). To take a well-known example: consider two Star Wars space battles, the one at the end of Episode IV and the one at the end of Episode I. In Episode IV, the battle is not just an episode of action; it has a narrative of its own and is cut in just such a way that the viewer can very easily grasp that narrative. A real sense of the geography of the Death Star trench, of the strategies of the Rebels and the Imperials, and of the successes and failures of each side is conveyed. In short, the battle is easy to follow. The space battle at the end of Episode I does not have a real story; it consists of rapid shots of various actions (flying, shooting, exploding) but it does not connect these shots into a coherent narrative; the battle is easy to watch, but not easy to follow. (Note that I am not bashing Episode I here; I merely think that in this particular instance Episode IV surpasses it).

Helm's Deep is like the Death Star battle. The attentive reader easily grasps the geography, the strategies, and the overall arc of the battle. I would contrast this with the Battle of the Pelennor Field, where the battle itself is more of an amorphous entity and we do not closely follow the particular ups and down of the fighting - not that this is really a flaw, since there are other things going on at that point more important than the battle at large.

[mark12_30]

More catsup
Notes from reading chapter prior to reading thread:

Much of my underlining and highlighting had to do with the layout of Helm's Deep and comparison to the movie, which I will endeavor to skip.
Seen dimly through the mists of antiquity... I love this sort of thing:

Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness with the hands of giants.

...and this:

In him lived again the valour of Helm the Hammerhand.

Strider in a poetic moment; he is usually so practical, this was nice to see:

‘Would that day was here and we might ride down upon them like a storm out of the mountains!’ said Aragorn. ‘It grieves me to fly before them.’

For just a moment, Legolas is seen in a vulnerable light. An elf, appreciating comfort! He is usally so steady and upbeat, this comes as a suprise, and a welcome window into his soul:

‘But you are a dwarf, and dwarves are strange folk. I do not like this place, and I shall like it no more by the light of day. But you comfort me, Gimli, and I am glad to have you standing nigh with your stout legs and your hard axe. I wish there were more of your kin among us. But even more would I give for a hundred good archers of Mirkwood. We shall need them. The Rohirrim have good bowmen after their fashion, but there are too few here, too few.’

Interesting to compare how the movie-folk morphed the scene between Eomer, Gimli, and Aragorn at the gates into just a scene between Aragorn and Gimli (which I did enjoy.) But here's the essential pithy quote from Eomer:

But oft the unbidden guest proves the best company.

From an archer's perspective this is especially poignant because shooting with someone else's arrows isn't easy!

‘Two?’ said Legolas. ‘I have done better, though now I must grope for spent arrows; all mine are gone

The importance of Lore to good morale:

...said Aragorn. ‘Is it not said that no foe has ever taken the Hornburg, if men defended it?’
‘So the minstrels say,’ said Éomer.
‘Then let us defend it, and hope!’ said Aragorn.

A moment of real vulnerability followed by delightful humor:

Aragorn gained the door, and swiftly it clanged to behind him.
‘Things go ill, my friends,’ he said, wiping the sweat from his brow with his arm.
‘Ill enough,’ said Legolas, ‘but not yet hopeless, while we have you with us. Where is Gimli?’
‘I do not know.’ said Aragorn. ...
...said Legolas. ‘But I wish that he had come this way. I desired to tell Master Gimli that my tale is now thirty-nine.’
‘If he wins back to the caves, he will pass your count again,’ laughed Aragorn.

Once again, an archer's heart goes out to Legolas:

‘I must go and seek some arrows,’ said Legolas. ‘Would that this night would end, and I could have better light for shooting.’

Interesting that a grey-elf here prefers daylight. I always imagined that a Mirkwood elf would have no problem seeing in the dark. Maybe he's just stating a preference rather than a need; fair enough, if so.

I found the doubts of Theoden especially poignant. "I fret in this prison." "I serve little purpose here." "My heart is doubtful." "The end will not be long." And yet... "When dawn comes... I will ride forth." There is courage! To look death in the face, and ride out to meet it... foreshadowing Pelennor in all its bloody valor and glory: "Death they cried with one voice..."

And with that shout the king came. His horse was white as snow, golden was his shield, and his spear was long. At his right hand was Aragorn, Elendil’s heir, behind him rode the lords of the House of Eorl the Young. Light sprang in the sky. Night departed.
...
There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him, hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot...
...
The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again.

Comparison/ contrast:

rev19.11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

[Guinevere]

I am lagging very very far behind, but still trying to follow. I enjoy reading all the interesting posts, but there is hardly anything left for me to say.

I notice how Gimli is here portreyed as valiant and hardy, not at all the laughing stock they made of him in the movie! Legolas respects him, and his words

... and dwarves are strange folk. (...)But you comfort me, Gimli, and I am glad to have you standing nigh with your stout legs and your hard axe. I wish there were more of your kin among us.

speak of quite a different relationship than the silly (and really quite mean) joke about "shall I describe it to you or shall I fetch a box.?" in the movie. .
And it is the counterpart to Gimli's words when entering Fangorn in "The White Rider"

...though Elves of any kind are strange folk. But you comfort me. Where you go, I will go."

Gamling and his men also estimate Gimli and ask his help to block the culvert where the orcs had come through.
And Gimli saves Eomer's life, no less!
Also, in the hunt after the orcs with Aragorn and Legolas, it is never said that he lagged behind because of short legs. On the contrary, dwarves are very enduring.(and not just boasting to be so)

[alatar]

This is just conjecture, but could the Siege of Alkmaar been an influence for the Battle of Helm's Deep?

Now, I read about this in a history book by H.G. Wells, and the link was the only one I could find that tells more details of the story, so some of you may know the story differently. Anyway, basically some General decided to 'increase the morale of the public' by slaughtering all of the inhabitants of the town that he was about to besiege. He had a professional army at his disposal, and also within that had a set of 'select' soldiers, which were better at soldiering than average. In the last town he attacked, he hung only 900 of its inhabitants, and still no one was taking him seriously nor showing signs of improved morale, and so he decided that Alkmaar would have to be a better show.

The inhabitants of Alkmaar, now properly motivated, decided to fight back by any and all means.

After raining much artillery down on the city, the General's select soldiers stormed the city only to be repelled by what ended up being a bunch of fishermen (persons, as I assume that all men, women and children took part in the defense). A breach in the city wall had been made but did not help the attackers. By days end, a thousand or so attackers lay dead, while the city's defenders lost merely a handful. The next day, the General bombarded the city again, but then decided to move on, as the ground was starting to get soggy. The city had opened up sluiceways, and so were letting the ocean in, making it hard for the General's soldiers to not be cranky.

The city let the General know that, should the attack continue, they would let the entire ocean in and flood the entire area, drowning the General and his soldiers along with all of their own crops and livestock. Seemingly they had a strong aversion to being hung.

The General, seeing how badly his men performed against motivated defenders, suddenly found an honorable way to retreat, stating that it was not the city defenders that made him turnabout, but the ocean, which no one could resist.

Anyone else see Helm's Deep, and the cleansing of Orthanc here?