Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[St. Povis]

Originally Posted by Essex

But I ask again, WHY DID TOLKIEN WRITE THE SCENE THE WAY HE DID? BECAUSE THE ROHIRRIM SAVE THE DAY AND SAVE GANDALF FROM A CONFLICT THAT HE MIGHT NOT HAVE WON.

I can honestly say when I read the books, I feel that the Witch King has the upper hand. The film has not changed my feelings on this. The Rohirrim saved the day. Yes, Jackson upped the anti somewhat in this scene by using Gandalf's prone position and his staff breaking. For us book lovers, it would have been perfect for it to follow the scene in the book word for word. But to the average movie goer IT WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED.

Jackson did not write the movies just for us Book readers. He ALSO wrote it for the general movie going public who pay the vast majority of his and his crew's wages. I am grateful for his adaptation and admire his work and dedication greatly. I have learnt over the past 3 years not to let scenes I disagree with cloud the movie for me.

Now what about the fact that the Witch Kings death was foretold? Just because the 'prophecy states that the witch king will not be slain by man' seems to give him a great deal of arrogance, since he seems to believe that no man 'CAN' kill him. Its a load, if you ask me. I think anyone who has read the books, including the Silmarillion, must know that the Maiar are well and above elfin propehcy, shaping destiny in accordance with their Valar's restrictions. I'm not clear on how people feel about it, but I'm pretty sure a Balrog would waste the Witch King. Not the other way around...separate point, but something to chew on...This says nothing about the fact that Gandalf is not really a 'man' per se, but a semi/demi/quasi divine being sent to middle earth with an agenda of 'minimal interference' to reach the end result.

Now, prophecy means {to myself, among others} that the event of The Witch King's death was 'witnessed' by Glorfindel as an event in time. I sincerely doubt, that, with respect to what Gandalf was, as opposed to what the Witch King was, that prophecy held any real water with Gandalf, who might very well have *chosen* the 'nobler' deed of dying, rather than meddle too deeply in the affairs of men or elves so as to break a great tradition of prophecy in which man and elf alike placed token faith. For the Witch King to sit there and brag that no man can kill him would certainly have provoked an inner laughter, if not a flat out guffaw in the Withered Old Husk's faceless, (and crownless, in the movie) helmet! I've no doubt that Gandalf the Grey might have had some trouble with all nine ringwraiths, but Gandalf the White certainly would not have any trouble dealing with the Witch King and his posturing. Staff or no staff, I don't think that GTW would not have so much as flinched at his presence, much less fallen cowering to the floor, and probably would have laughed IF the staff broke, making some offhand remark about the Tolkein equivalent of Karma getting him back for having broken Saruman's staff. If he were forced to, he would fight the Witch king to a stalemate rather than kill him (which he surely could have done in a blink.) until the *moment* of prophecy, {which many believe he was well aware of}, came to pass. I think that what makes it disappointing is that, given a good once over of Gandalf as Olorin, and his The Hobbit/FOTR personality as a generally care free happy go lucky wizard in the Grey Robes, its just too much for people to let their imaginations create the reality that Gandalf is, for all intents and purposes, an obfuscator of many great secrets. His entire character, as written from Olorin to Gandalf the Grey, to Gandalf the White suggests that he knows an IMMENSE deal more than he lets on to the others "(Yes, it certainly has the 'Ring; of truth to it, etc)", and that, given his personality as Olorin, it probably breaks his heart to have so many solemn duties awaiting him and the people he loves. Almost as if he wants to disbelieve the fortunes he so clearly sees as they draw nearer and nearer.

That's one of the most irritating aspects of filmmaking: The slaughter of a good tale to reach the moonstruck to whom a great many subtleties are lost upon. Its one of the reasons I don't entirely blame Jackson (or the others) for his liberties. Certain things should be left alone, though. I agree with you to some degree, but certainly not in totality. I may very well be entirely wrong.





If that don't bugger all! I got myself wrapped up in this thread again! Curse you Shelob!