If Beren had not died - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen · 01-31-2005, 01:57 PM

I would just like to get something straight before I am able to have a valid opinion on the subject. Am I to understand that, had Beren not been killed and then brought back to life, it would have affected Luthien's fate? She would not have died a mortal death? Or is this merely speculation also?

Formendacil · 01-31-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linnahiril Tinnufinwen

I would just like to get something straight before I am able to have a valid opinion on the subject. Am I to understand that, had Beren not been killed and then brought back to life, it would have affected Luthien's fate? She would not have died a mortal death? Or is this merely speculation also?

Luthien was not supposed to die a mortal death. As an Elf (or rather, a half-Elf, half-Maia), she was supposed to be immortal.

However, when Beren died, she "died" in the sense that the Elves do (think of Miriel) and went to Mandos. There, she pleaded her case with Mandos, begging him to bring Beren back to life. Touched, for the only time in his existence, Mandos gave her a choice. She could be reincarnated, in the manner of all the Elves, and live out a blissful life in Valinor with her Maiar and Eldar kin, or she and Beren would both be sent back to life in middle-earth, but it would be a mortal life in the manner of Men, and there would be no guarantees that their lives would be long or happy.

Luthien chose the second choice, and she and Beren returned to life in middle-earth, and there lived happily for many years, before dying once and for all, leaving the circles of the world completely.

yavanna II · 02-01-2005, 04:15 AM

[QUOTE]/
I was wondering, what do you think would have happened in the Legenduim if Beren had not been killed when he got the Silmaril from Melkor. If he had lived out his life as a normal person with an Evish wife. What do you think would have happened at the end of his life to himself and Luthien. Do you think that maybe they would have ended up like Idril and Tuor? Or maybe Luthien would have stilled died with him and everything that happened would have stilled happen only in a different way?/[QUOTE]

tHEN the whole history of Beleriand could be altered.

Luthien and Beren will live at Doriath with the Sil, no Feanorean or Dwarf would assail em, Thingol won't die, Melian will stay and the Girdle thing will remain, protecting Doriath. Bern will die a natural death at a ripe old age, but Luthien won't follow cos her mom, dad, and son're still there. The Sil will remain hidden. All Elf-kingdoms would fall and their remnants will flee to Doriath, and therefore increase its military potential. Sooner or later Morgy will attack them and destroy the Elves. Earendil would not reach Valinor cos the Sil's still there, and he will end up lost. The Valar would not end up in time to save ME, and Morgy will reign.

Neithan · 02-01-2005, 06:26 AM

Which brings up another question. Was Morgoth known to his close friends and advisors as "Morgy"?

I can imagine what would happen to Sauron if he tried calling him that.

yavanna II · 02-01-2005, 11:27 PM

I refer to Morgoth as "Morgy" cos I'm too lazy to type... and add the fact that I wasn't really supposed to go here because I am studying my Chem.

Oh. And "Chem" is short for Chemistry.

burrahobbit · 02-04-2005, 01:09 PM

I don't see the point of this question, and I don't think any of you above me do either. It wouldn't have made any difference if Beren had not died, because he came back. If Beren had not died and Luthien not willed herself to die, then Beren and Luthian would have moved away to the same part of the world that they moved to anyway, and then beren would grow old and die just like he did anyway, and Luthien would have willed herself to die just like she did the first time anyway.

Speculation is all fine and dandy, but this is one point where it just doesn't make any difference.

Also, Beren didn't die when he got the Silmaril from Morgoth. He made it through that bit just fine.

01-31-2005, 01:57 PM	#1
Linnahiril Tinnufinwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 77	I would just like to get something straight before I am able to have a valid opinion on the subject. Am I to understand that, had Beren not been killed and then brought back to life, it would have affected Luthien's fate? She would not have died a mortal death? Or is this merely speculation also? __________________ The world is a great book, of which they who never stir from home read only a page

02-01-2005, 06:26 AM	#4
Neithan Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 126	Which brings up another question. Was Morgoth known to his close friends and advisors as "Morgy"? I can imagine what would happen to Sauron if he tried calling him that. __________________ If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau

02-04-2005, 01:09 PM	#6
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	I don't see the point of this question, and I don't think any of you above me do either. It wouldn't have made any difference if Beren had not died, because he came back. If Beren had not died and Luthien not willed herself to die, then Beren and Luthian would have moved away to the same part of the world that they moved to anyway, and then beren would grow old and die just like he did anyway, and Luthien would have willed herself to die just like she did the first time anyway. Speculation is all fine and dandy, but this is one point where it just doesn't make any difference. Also, Beren didn't die when he got the Silmaril from Morgoth. He made it through that bit just fine. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? Last edited by burrahobbit; 02-04-2005 at 01:13 PM. Reason: add things

02-01-2005, 04:15 AM	#3
yavanna II Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in my own little world Posts: 142	[QUOTE]/ I was wondering, what do you think would have happened in the Legenduim if Beren had not been killed when he got the Silmaril from Melkor. If he had lived out his life as a normal person with an Evish wife. What do you think would have happened at the end of his life to himself and Luthien. Do you think that maybe they would have ended up like Idril and Tuor? Or maybe Luthien would have stilled died with him and everything that happened would have stilled happen only in a different way?/[QUOTE] tHEN the whole history of Beleriand could be altered. Luthien and Beren will live at Doriath with the Sil, no Feanorean or Dwarf would assail em, Thingol won't die, Melian will stay and the Girdle thing will remain, protecting Doriath. Bern will die a natural death at a ripe old age, but Luthien won't follow cos her mom, dad, and son're still there. The Sil will remain hidden. All Elf-kingdoms would fall and their remnants will flee to Doriath, and therefore increase its military potential. Sooner or later Morgy will attack them and destroy the Elves. Earendil would not reach Valinor cos the Sil's still there, and he will end up lost. The Valar would not end up in time to save ME, and Morgy will reign.

02-01-2005, 11:27 PM	#5
yavanna II Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in my own little world Posts: 142	I refer to Morgoth as "Morgy" cos I'm too lazy to type... and add the fact that I wasn't really supposed to go here because I am studying my Chem. Oh. And "Chem" is short for Chemistry.