What ain't there and ought to be.

[davem]

Wasn't the Wild Wood always a place of danger & magic? It was never a safe, comfortable place. Its not a place characters live, its a place they go to, & have adventures . There shouldn't be wildwood in the Shire because the Shire is not a place where one has adventures. Adventures are what you find when you've left the safety of the Shire.

For me, Tolkien displays the proper respect for the wildwood by not giving it a place in his safe little Shire. When it appears it is always depicted as a place of power & magic. It is awe-full. No-one ever leaves it as they entered. They emerge transformed - as they should.

[littlemanpoet]

Here's a new one: butchers.

There are a few lists of various this's and that's in the Shire, some of which are types of employment. There are farmers, millers, gardeners, mayors, postmen, shirriffs, innkeepers, cartwrights, smiths, ropers, et cetera. But no butchers. See page 15 of FotR for an example of a such a list. Is this another example of Tolkien's overly idyllic Shire? Or is a matter of "it wasn't in the story so it wasn't in the story"? Or is it a matter of farmers being the butchers in the Shire?

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Here's a new one: butchers.

There are a few lists of various this's and that's in the Shire, some of which are types of employment. There are farmers, millers, gardeners, mayors, postmen, shirriffs, innkeepers, cartwrights, smiths, ropers, et cetera. But no butchers. See page 15 of FotR for an example of a such a list. Is this another example of Tolkien's overly idyllic Shire? Or is a matter of "it wasn't in the story so it wasn't in the story"? Or is it a matter of farmers being the butchers in the Shire?

Dictionary.com...
butch·er. n.:

1.

a. One who slaughters and dresses animals for food or market.
b. One who sells meats.

2. One that kills brutally or indiscriminately.
3. A vendor, especially one on a train or in a theater.
4. One who bungles something.

[Middle English bucher, from Old French bouchier, from bouc, boc, he-goat, probably of Celtic origin.]

Perhaps it's the negative connotation associated with definition 2 that kept butchers out of the Shire. Even though we're clearly talking about the meat-seller definition, butcher isn't a neutral word when it comes to the connotation. I think it jars with the atmosphere of the Shire to introduce a word that could conjure up images of brutality. Hence, maybe butchers are left out of the Shire not because of an overly idyllic setting but rather because the word's associations don't fit with the portrayal of Hobbits.

[littlemanpoet]

Maybe it's also because the word is of Norman-French derivation. What would be the Anglo-Saxon cognate? Slaughterer?

[Anguirel]

Excluding Norman words would, I believe, do for farmer and most certainly outlaw mayor...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by lmp

Here's a new one: butchers.

There are a few lists of various this's and that's in the Shire, some of which are types of employment. There are farmers, millers, gardeners, mayors, postmen, shirriffs, innkeepers, cartwrights, smiths, ropers, et cetera. But no butchers. See page 15 of FotR for an example of a such a list. Is this another example of Tolkien's overly idyllic Shire? Or is a matter of "it wasn't in the story so it wasn't in the story"? Or is it a matter of farmers being the butchers in the Shire?

I think, looking at how society is still organised on an informal basis in The Shire, that the farmers would also have been the butchers. This was very much the case in rural areas even into the twentieth century, butchers being mainly found in urban areas. I can in fact remember my father buying meat direct from the farmer, my grandmother making sausages and black puddings herself, and I was given a brace of pheasant from which I had to remove the shot, the heads and feet myself before I could cook it, so this is not quite so far out of memory anyway.

Possibly it wasn't an issue for Tolkien to have butchery as a specific trade in The Shire, if it was drawn from his own childhood memories; though being an urbanite, he would have been more used to the idea of butchers in his adult life.

Why was my first thought one of revulsion at the very thought of butchers being present in The Shire? Perhaps the thought of killing animals would intrude on the vision of The Shire as the perfect rural paradise?

[littlemanpoet]

Sorry for the pun in the title.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

...the farmers would also have been the butchers.

Yes, that was my initial thought from the get-go. I admit to using the the "butcher" topic as an almost good enough excuse to resurrect this thread.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Why was my first thought one of revulsion at the very thought of butchers being present in The Shire? Perhaps the thought of killing animals would intrude on the vision of The Shire as the perfect rural paradise?

But it's intriguing questions like this that make bringing the thread back up worth having done. I'm not surprised at the revulsion. Nevertheless, any avid reader of Tolkien would have to admit that slaughtering of farm animals had to have occurred in the Middle-earth Shire, even if it was farmers who did it. Hobbits ate stew, did they not? with meat in it? But did Tolkien mean the Shire to be "perfect"? Perhaps it would be best to say that Tolkien intended it to be idyllic (I can't even bring myself to describe it as bucolic, as that has negative connotations for me!). What ever word you choose to use, the sense of intrusion would probably still be there, I take it? Maybe that has as much to do with us urban shoppers as it does with the act of slaughtering animals? After all, we're more disconnected from the earth than people were in Tolkien's time. The Machine!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Excluding Norman words would, I believe, do for farmer and most certainly outlaw mayor...

Just a small addition. The Old English word for mayor comes to us in our word "reeve", usually used (in my part of the world) in terms of 'reeve of the township'. The modern City council 'alderman' comes from the OE 'ealdorman' (not sure if that is the correct spelling and my books aren't near me now.)