Beyond the Tolkien Estate

[Mithalwen]

If I remember rightly the film rights were sold in the 60's when percentage cuts were not really done. For example the actors who played the children in 'The Sound of Music', have got nothing from the movies beyond the original performance fees. I believe the estate has neither stake in nor say over the films - which is why it distanced itself from them. However Harper Collins as publishers of both the original works and the film spin offs has a foot in both camps or a conflict of interests depending on your perspective......

'Although (to stick up for my profession for a moment ) those instructing the lawyers must take their fair share of the blame.' SpM

LOL but only following orders is a rather dubious defence..........

[Mister Underhill]

Well, contract players have historically always gotten the shaft on profit participation; only very powerful stars are (or were) able to command a true percentage of profits. Rank and file actors are "ten a penny" (to quote Shakespeare in Love) and unfortunately as a profession don't wield a lot of bargaining power. You might be surprised to learn that the current SAG contract does not provide for royalties from DVD sales. The producers have a death grip on that revenue stream and it doesn't seem likely that actors will be able to win any of that money in the current negotiations unless they're willing to strike for it.

On the other hand, it's fairly typical, even historically, for film rights deals with authors to include profit participation in addition to a lump sum. Like I said, who knows without seeing the contracts? But besides Forbes reporting for the past three years that the Estate gets a slice of the profits, there's an article in The Guardian which also claims that Tolkien cut a reasonably fair deal:

Far from the £10,000 of lore, he got $250,000 (then worth about £102,500) and a percentage of the royalties, which could eventually be a massive fillip to his estate, already fat from the sale of 100m books around the globe. The estate's solicitors confirmed yesterday that it would get more royalties if the film took two and a half times its costs.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Well, contract players have historically always gotten the shaft on profit participation; only very powerful stars are (or were) able to command a true percentage of profits. Rank and file actors are "ten a penny" (to quote Shakespeare in Love) and unfortunately as a profession don't wield a lot of bargaining power. You might be surprised to learn that the current SAG contract does not provide for royalties from DVD sales. The producers have a death grip on that revenue stream and it doesn't seem likely that actors will be able to win any of that money in the current negotiations unless they're willing to strike for it.

On the other hand, it's fairly typical, even historically, for film rights deals with authors to include profit participation in addition to a lump sum. Like I said, who knows without seeing the contracts? But besides Forbes reporting for the past three years that the Estate gets a slice of the profits, there's an article in The Guardian which also claims that Tolkien cut a reasonably fair deal:

I stand corrected..... thanks ...

[Mithadan]

As I understand it, and I may be incorrect on the details, JRRT ran into financial problems in the 1960s due to income tax and medical liabilities. He sold the "movie rights" to The Hobbit and LoTR to a US company now known as Tolkien Enterprises (they have or had a website) for a sum of money which would now be considered small, but at that time was relatively sizeable (I have heard the number was around $15,000 US but I've also heard larger figures). I have heard rumors on both sides of the royalties issue, i.e. that the Estate does or does not receive royalties resulting from Tolkien Enterprises' marketing and use.

Works of art and printed text (which include lyrics and, now, computer code) can be copyrighted under US law. Names are subject to trademark. The term "movie rights" means that Tolkien Enterprise received a license to utilize the texts in connection with motion picture and stage productions. I also understand that the license included the marketing rights to all names contained in the books. So figurines, artwork. playing cards, games related to The Hobbit and LoTR are licensed by Tolkien Enterprises (or their licensee, New Line), not by the Tolkien Estate. Tolkien Enterprises also claims to possess rights, either via US trademark or copyright (statutory or common law), over the use of names appearing in the Hobbit and LoTR.

The Estate retained rights to the texts themselves. The Silmarillion was not included in the "movie rights", so all rumors that there will be a Silmarillion or Beren and Luthien movie are false (unless the Estate and Christopher Tolkien license such a production). So all publications of LoTR and The Hobbit (unless they are illegal knockoffs) are authorized by the Estate. Toys, cards and movies are controlled by Tolkien Enterprises. Thinking about this, I wonder which authorized the publication of the Hobbit comic books back in the 1980s.

A matter of concern could be that since Tolkien Enterprises possesses the marketing rights, they could in theory create derivative works for motion picture purposes. In other words, new stories based upon LoTR or the Hobbit. This would depend on the nature and wording of the license which could prohibit such productions. I seem to recall that a version of the Aragorn-Arwen love story was under consideration at some point.

[Mithalwen]

or it will start getting expensive ........

certainly I know that it was for tax reasons the manuscripts were sold......

[Child of the 7th Age]

The other day I ran into this listing on e-bay, and my jaw dropped open: sale of planet-tolkien.com

Apparently, the largest Tolkien website in the United Kingdom is now "for sale". As the e-bay listing indicates, Planet Tolkien has over 5,000 members and thousands of hits per day. I had a membership there a number of years ago, so I suppose I am included somewhere in that 5,000. They are asking for at least 3,000 pounds, which would be about $5,700. So far there are no takers.

This is also the same website that I linked to in a former post on this thread. At that point I noted that the site had been contacted by lawyers of the Tolkien Estate in July 2004 who made this charge aganst the owner:

.....you have registered the domain name in "bad faith", with an intention to use its name for your own financial gain (either directly or via advertising revenue) or in the hope of selling it to our client for more than the administrative costs incurred by you. It is, therefore, an abusive registration within the meaning set out in the Nominet DRS.

Are there some legal eagles or knowledgable fans out there who can explain to me what is going on? Can a person "sell" a website complete with 5,000 members, of which I am one? Is it an infringement of the Tolkien Estate to benefit financially from such a deal, or is this the legitimate workings of the market? I was once a librarian responsible for acquiring all the materials for a large public library system so I have some inkling how copyright works, but this website and domain name "stuff" is a complete mystery to me.

[Mithadan]

Websites are bought and sold every day. The membership list is, in effect, a customer list and such lists are often sold in business either alone or as part of a larger commercial transaction. All this auction is selling is a domain name, software, a customer list and data in the form of the content of the website. If I were either buyer or seller, I would certainly not be satisfied without substantial terms and conditions to protect me.

As for the copyright issue, note the disclaimer at the bottom of the listing stating that the website is not sanctioned by or affiliated with the Tolkien Estate, Newline, or Tolkien Enterprises. I would suspect that such a disclaimer might have been what was required to avoid the copyright infringement claim threatened against the website, or maybe the owner is attempting a duck and run. I don't know and don't care to know either.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Websites are bought and sold every day. The membership list is, in effect, a customer list and such lists are often sold in business either alone or as part of a larger commercial transaction. All this auction is selling is a domain name, software, a customer list and data in the form of the content of the website. If I were either buyer or seller, I would certainly not be satisfied without substantial terms and conditions to protect me.

As for the copyright issue, note the disclaimer at the bottom of the listing stating that the website is not sanctioned by or affiliated with the Tolkien Estate, Newline, or Tolkien Enterprises. I would suspect that such a disclaimer might have been what was required to avoid the copyright infringement claim threatened against the website, or maybe the owner is attempting a duck and run. I don't know and don't care to know either.

The issue here isn't one of copyright, but of trademark and the developing law of domain names. The Estate has already registered "JRR Tolkien" as a trademark, and has applied to register "Tolkien" as well. Now, it may sound ****y for their lawyers to be suing everyone on the Web who uses the word: but they have to, you see: if a trademark holder doesn't actively protect it, if he just lets infringements slide, then the TM can be "generified" and pass into the public domain. Cf nylon (once a brand name), and Xerox Corp's continual fight to keep "xerox" from being a synonym for "photocopy."

As for domain names: it's solid precedent now in the [insert acronym for the international body that administers domain names] that you have a better right to your own name than anyone else does- it's consistently shot down domain name pirates who used to register tons of names like "beatles.com" and "phantomoftheopera.net," with intent to sell them to said persons for mucho moolah.

[Alcuin]

The Tolkien Estate has its own website, http://tolkienestate.com/. It is registered to Adam Tolkien, grandson of JRR Tolkien and son of Christopher Tolkien, and is currently under construction, but its unique “under construction” page has information about the upcoming book Children of Húrin.