Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Findegil]

RD-SL-27:
What I found is not to much but here we go:
The map itself was old. But the Road was put in later. All changes made to the map are recorded, but they are in no way dated (which seems in many instances nearly impossible to do anyway). The only slight evidence that I could find is the name "Duin Dhaer" as a replacment of "Gelion" and "Rathmalad" for "Rathloriel". These changes were at least made in the same period as the similar changes in the TY Version D (Rathloriel -> Rathmallen). But that does only tell us that the map was still used at that time. It does not provide us with any evidence that the Dwarf-road shown represented Tolkien view at that time or that it was drawn in at that time. But from what can be seen in the Chapter "Maeglin" of HoME XI he still found the representation of the Dwarf-Road east of Gelion fitting, since he didn't change it when he put the way of Eöl from Nogord to Nan Elmoth and beyond in a copy of the map. The “Maeglin” story was worked at very lat in Tolkien’s live about 1970. We are not told if the line of red dots that represented the way of Eöl started in Nogrod, it is just said that, “this red dotted line continues straight on across square G13 to Sarn Athrad, and then coincides with the Dwarf-Road up into the mountains, already present in the primary map.”
Christopher Tolkien does also not give as an good dating for TY D. He suggested that it was may be contemporary with JRR Tolkiens work on the ‘Turin-Saga’ which would be slightly later then the rest of the TY which Aiwendil dated correctly in 1951-2. But the change of the battle-place to a ford of Ascar was represented already in TY C. From TY B and TY A I got the impression that even their the Ford was over Ascar, because the battle is “at Rath-loriel”.

Thus we are still no further in our decision.

But the map does provide us with a good reason for Tolkiens change: The distance between the Ford over Gelion and the river Ascar is about 4.75 miles or 7.6 kilometres. That would be a walk of about 1.5 hours on a road, but to make that cross country laden with a heavy burden would take considerably longer. If Beren had (as we assume) only a small number of Greenelves we must ask our self how he transported the Hoard to the river Ascar to drown it.

Posted by Aiwendil:

I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle.

I agree that the map does not suggest a crossing of the dwarf-road with Ascar and that if such crossing is to postulated it must be in the foothills and near to the source.
But I don’t see that this would contradict the accounts of the Battle. The only account that is detailed enough to be in anyway contradicted is TN. But even in that case I don’t see a heavy contradiction. The Pass that the road approached is described as “high pass”. Thus the Ascar could be a river spring-fed by a glacier. Anyway it could be a fast and deep stream already near to its source and a heavy obstacle for any crossing in all times of the year. A Ford build from shingle-isles and with a high and step bank on the one side does not strike me as impossible for a short river (not more then 75 miles) in the mountains that swelled Gelion in a way that it was uncross able south of the confluence.

So I am still for your option 2

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-66

I wonder how much of Ros we are justified in putting in here. The sudden etymological discussion certainly interrupts the narrative and sounds out of place. But are we to consider this a problem? I suppose I could go with your suggestion.


RD-SL-72

It still seems to me very plausible that "Ascar" was a mere slip of the pen. Such a change would, I still feel, have necessitated some changes to the geography. I really doubt that the the ford would be as close to Nogrod as the map suggests it would need to be. But of course such a change in geography is quite possible. If Ascar turned northeastward a little more quickly, or if Nogrod were just slightly further south, the river might need to be forded well before the mountains.

So I am in doubt. Maedhros, what do you think?

[Findegil]

As it seems their are only 3 points left unresolved in the above discussion:

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Aiwendil hasitatingly supported the inclusion of the laughing elves; and I equily hasitating support its execlusion.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Maedhros found it diminishing to the charchter of Beren to laugh at Melian. But I disagree to that, or at least I can not see why we should change it.

(If we will in the end execlued both laughings, it seems we will get a very serious tale.)

RD-SL-27:
Aiwendil feels more save with the fight at the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] and a transportation of the Hoard; and I support the fight at the Ford over Ascar that isn't mentioned any where else than in TY.
To this complex I like to put even a further streching: If the Ford over Ascar is postulated for the solution of this complex, than an argument could be made that the name of Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was transfered to that Ford and that therefore the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] recieved the new name Athrad Daer. (Possible since the name was developed later while working on the Maeglin story.)

One further point need to be discussed: Rathloriel was changed on the map to Rathmalad and in TY to Rathmallen. Should we adopt one of these changes? And if so which one? Also if we change the name, is then the translation Golden-Bed still valid? So do we skip it or can we make an updated one?
Since Rathmalad is only hastily penciled and not entirly clear, I would go with Rathmallen which is at least fairly readable and thus in my view more reliable. But I have no clou how this would translat into english.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Findegil and Aiwendil:
You may have noticed that I have not posted much in the last few weeks, unfortunately this is due because my grandmother has been very ill and alas she has died yesterday.
If you will give me sometime to do somethings that I need to arrange, hopefully I can give my opinions shortly.

[Aiwendil]

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss, Maedhros. You have my sincere sympathy. Please take all the time you need - don't feel that this project is yet another pressure to deal with.

Findegil: About Rathmalad/Rathmallen. I think that at least this point is easy enough to deal with; the translation should be unchanged. the LOR- stem, I believe, refers to "golden" as a colour of light (as in "Laurelin"). The MAL- stem refers to "golden" meaning "of or relating to the metal gold".

I'm a little unsure whether Rathmalad or Rathmallen would be preferrable to adopt, but you make a good case for Rathmallen.

[Maédhros]

Thanks Aiwendil.

Now regarding the RD-SL-27 issue:
Let me quote the following:
From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta

To the north of that region is a ford across the river Ascar, near to its joining with Duilwen7 that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named Sarn-athra,8 the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes,9 and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host. But Beren took the Nauglafring,10 the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathlorion,

The interesting thing to note here is that at first, the battle in the Ford is across the River Ascar and that the treasure was drowned in that same River. Then JRRT changed the first mention of Ascar to Gelion. Thus we have that the battle took place in the Ford across Gelion and the treasure was drowned in another River called Ascar.
I find it very interesting the fact that JRRT would only change his narrative in the way that at first both of these events ocurred in the same river, and then the fight occurred in one and the drowning in the other. My personal opinion is that JRRT intended to have both things occurred in the same river, but that he forgot to make the second change. CT has another opinion in his Commentary.
In the Tale of Years it is said that the battle took place across the River Ascar as in the Original version of chapter 14 of the Quenta.
I think that it is a slip in the part of JRRT and that he meant rather Gelion.
It is funny but my personal preference is to have the fight as Findegil points out (why take that whole treasure to drown in another river?) but in the end I have to side with CT that JRRT meant that the fight took place in Gelion and the drowning took place in Ascar.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Aiwendil hasitatingly supported the inclusion of the laughing elves; and I equily hasitating support its execlusion.

I don't see the need for it's exclusion. Elves laughing at the dwarves at that situation do not seem out of character from them. After all they were pretty brave in Menegroth and then lost their valour.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Maedhros found it diminishing to the charchter of Beren to laugh at Melian. But I disagree to that, or at least I can not see why we should change it.

I guess that I can make the little point that in the Tale, Beren was an Elf and not a Man. To me, the later Beren is a noble character who would not disrespect a maiar like Melian.
Aiwendil, what do you think?

[Findegil]

First let me express my sincere condolences to you, Maédhros.


RD-SL-27:
In Q30 Tolkien named the Great River of East-Beleriand (latest name Duin Daer) at first Ascar. Then when he found that the first tributary of that river should have that name he changed the name to Flend and later to Gelion.
With the geography that underlaies Q30 I would not have any problem. The Ford was directly south of the confluence of Flend [Duin Daer] and Ascar. Thus a hoard drowned at that ford would have been drowned figuratively in both rivers. Such a ford as Sarn Athrad in the position of Q30 would have been builded out of the load of stones carried by Ascar (that were droped when with the confluence the current became less strong). That would have provided a good reason to rename the river Ascar to Rathlorion -> Rathloriel -> Rathmallen, since the implication of the gold in the ford would hve been that Ascar did carry that gold and laied it down at the confluence.
But the geography changed. The Ford over Duin Daer is now clearly a few miles north of the confluence. If the Battle is still at that Ford and the hoard is to be drowned in Ascar the elves must activly transport it.
In TY we do not have a clear picture of the geography involved. But it can be seen clearly that JRR Tolkien changed the story. The "slip of the pen" argument does not work for me. In no Versions of TY the River Gelion is even mentioned and any way Gelion was never the renamed River. That was in fact the tributary river ever since the fight was moved away from Aros.

I think that JRR Tolkien changed the fight to be at a Ford over Ascar exactly because he wanted to aviod that transport and any activity of the Elves with the hoard. In my view we could only hold the fight at the ford over Duin Daer when we label the changed that occoured in TY as "unworkable outline", but it does not seem to be, for me at least.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
Okay, if you both feel that eves laughin at the flying dwarves is fine we will take them in from both occurences.

§51d laughed -> answered:
Are you suggesting that for an Elf it would not have been disrespectfull to laugh at Melians warning? That only would be true for me if I would lock at Elves like the group that welcomed Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin & Co. in Rivendell in the Hobbit. But even then, Beren talks here with his mother in law and she is giving him advise in a grave matter concerning his beloved. And equally if he is an Elf or an Adan Melian is fare above him in wisdom, in rank and in expirence. Thus it was disrespectfull anyway. And we have no hint that JRR Tolkien planed to change it. On the conteray the outcome of the conversation never changed: Beren kept the Nauglamír against Melians advice.

Rathloriel -> Rathmalad or Rathmallen:
Rathmallen, the Golden Bed, it will become in the next version of the text.

Respectfully
Findegil