About dwarf women

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So the question I thought about: The Seven Fathers of the Dwarves. Some of them were women? Dwarves are, in my opinion, very patriarchaic (?) people. So some of their most highly regarded ancestors being women doesn't sound very smart. But some of them, at least one, had to be women/woman, because otherwise the dwarves would have died to extinction, because men can't reproduce without women. Any ideas about this?

If I recall correctly, Tolkien's final opinion on the subject was that in addition to the Seven Fathers, there were also Six Mothers, who were laid together with one of the Seven Fathers, except for the Eldest, Durin. Durin later ended up wedding one of the progeny of the other Six Fathers.

[Thinlómien]

That sounds correct to me, though I haven't ever heard about it.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If I recall correctly, Tolkien's final opinion on the subject was that in addition to the Seven Fathers, there were also Six Mothers, who were laid together with one of the Seven Fathers, except for the Eldest, Durin. Durin later ended up wedding one of the progeny of the other Six Fathers.

i find this kind of odd since it is written that durin woke upp long before all the other dwarves

[Bêthberry]

Hmmm. What might have inspired or prompted Tolkien to imagine or create bearded dwarven women?

Was he conceiving of some kind of sexual boundary shifting? Both the Ents and the Dwarves apparently as races 'die out' and both have female members who are somehow beyond the pale of female norms. The entwives are said to prefer too much control or power over the natural world. Dwarven women with their beards are indistinguishable from dwarven males and few in number.

And if this is the case, does the disappearance of the race suggest a comment on this boundary shifting?

Or is Tolkien merely drawing upon old legends to populate his race? Why did Terry Pratchett give his female dwarves beards--a nod to Tolkien? This appears to be a feature of fantasy.

What's with the cultural meaning of hair in Middle-earth?

See also Bearded Women in Wikipedia

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

What's with the cultural meaning of hair in Middle-earth?

We did get into that (partly) here

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

We did get into that (partly) here

Yes, an interesting discussion, but it did not include dwarves now, did it? And it was referenced only to one particular aspect of female hair, which is culturally priviledged and even sanctioned.

And I'm not sure it would include hairy hobbit feet.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yes, an interesting discussion, but it did not include dwarves now, did it? And it was referenced only to one particular aspect of female hair, which is culturally priviledged and even sanctioned.

And I'm not sure it would include hairy hobbit feet.

Picky

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Hmmm. What might have inspired or prompted Tolkien to imagine or create bearded dwarven women?

Maybe he wanted to express the strange creation of the Dwarves by Aule. The Dwarves didn't come normally into being like Elves and Men, who were created by Ilúvatar. The Dwarves were made in a revolutionary way against the 'law' of Ilúvatar. Although Ilúvatar adopted them. But he didn't create them. Aule created them, because he couldn't wait for the Coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. But he created them straight from his memory of the vision, which was not very clear.
Maybe Aule couldn't remember this little detail, that male and female differ in the face. Consequently he gave both a beard.

In every case I have the meaning, that Tolkien wanted to express that Dwarves are different from the other Children of Ilúvatar. And this theory fits well with the reasons of Aule creating the Dwarves (and his lacking memory of the vision.)

[davem]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

Maybe Aule couldn't remember this little detail, that male and female differ in the face. Consequently he gave both a beard.

In every case I have the meaning, that Tolkien wanted to express that Dwarves are different from the other Children of Ilúvatar. And this theory fits well with the reasons of Aule creating the Dwarves (and his lacking memory of the vision.)

But hadn't the Valar already taken male & female forms by then? I wonder if the 'female' Valar were as ignorant as Aule. Yavanna with a beard & mustache?

EDIT: Just found this. Relevant part (possibly) is the story of the chain made by the Dwarves to restrain the Wolf Fenris:

The Gods kept and fed the wolf at home. Tyr was the only one who was brave enough to feed him. But when the Gods saw how fast the wolf grew, and as for all prophesies foretold that he would harm them, the Gods decided to make a strong fetter for Fenrir called "Læðing". They took the fetter to Fenrir and asked him to try to break it, Fenrir did that without any trouble. The Gods then made the fetter called "Drómi" and asked the wolf to break that one. Fenrir thought to himself as he hadn´t had any trouble braking the "læðing" why should he not be able to break this one as well. Fenrir told the Gods to put the fetter around his neck, he then broke the fetter easily. The Gods then became scared that there would be no way to contain the wolf. Odin then sent a messenger of Frey called Skirnir down into the world of the Swart Alfs, below the earth, to meet some Dwarves. The Dwarves make the fetter called "Gleipnir". Gleipnir was made of six things: the boom of the cat, the beard of the woman, the roots of the mountains, the sinews of the bears, the breath of the fish and the spit of the birds. You might think there are no such things but this story shows why women don't grow beards, why the cat makes no sound and why the mountains have no roots.

We must assume that it was in a later age that the Dwarves made Gleipnir & that from thenceforward Dwarf women were beardless.

At least, this seems to be where Tolkien got the idea for Dwarf Women having beards. 'Unless, of course, you know different....'