Visible souls....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just occured to me: isn't it interesting that the first effect of the Ring is to make one invisible? It suggests that the evil of the Ring is one that manifests by obscuring or eradicating the 'outwardness' of a character, or one that works contratry to this idea of wearing one's soul on the outside. The Ring denies that possibility by removing the outward appearance and locking (even trapping) the wearer in an eternal hell of internal existence. Frodo's experience of being invisible is terribly isolating (he is "naked" and even more visible to those other inwardly self-directed beings Sauron and the Nazgul).

The lasting effect of the Ring upon Gollum is that his outwardness has all but gone: his appearance is wasted and withered, he prefers to keep in the dark, he speaks to himself and thinks only of his own desires.

The great evil of the Ring is that it makes one's outwardness invisible to oneself, forcing him or her into living out his or her life only inwardly???

herm hoom baroom. . .more coffee is needed. . .

[mark12_30]

still reading, but in response to Fordie's comment above: Some define the "soul" as intellect, emotions, and will, as opposed to spirit being the life that is given by God (some separate these, some don't) (breath, wind, pneuma-- see mystic unity thread).

"Soul" has all sorts of connotations, some positive, some negative; there are those who contrast "soulishness" (fleshly, burdensome) with "spirituality" (good)... the soul is to be stilled and quieted (Psalm... something) or tamed or decreased.

I suppose if we are talking about "Visible Souls", and the body becomes invisible, then one must wonder whether the soul-- intellect, emotions, will -- is disappearing.

Bilbo escaped this fate.

The ringwraiths, I think, didn't.

Does Frodo?

Am I subdividing this too much? Lewis might object to the interpretation. (Wasn't he Episcopalian... don't think they divide it like the evangelicals do... )

:crosseyed:

Fordie, where's the coffee?

[drigel]

so many connotations and every one a tangent to run with.

suppose if we are talking about "Visible Souls", and the body becomes invisible, then one must wonder whether the soul is disappearing.

What would that say about old Tom? enigma indeed

When I think about the ring, I remember what our hobbit mortal ringbearers saw when they put the ring on. I would interpret that the only thing the ringwraith's had, enslaved as it was, was a spririt. The ring, forged by a fallen angel, was a physical link to the unseen world, one's spirit being a part of that world. It gets fuzzy for me at this point. Is it the strength of one's mind or one's spirit that determines the (partial?) command of the ring?

Venti triple coffe mocha yumm

[Lalwendë]

The old brain cells are seriously depleted now, and I thought I had what Fordim says all 'sewn up' so to speak but now Drigel has thrown a spanner in the works of my brain:

Originally Posted by Drigel

What would that say about old Tom? enigma indeed

Well, as soon as I read what Fordim says about the effects of the Ring, I thought that it must be working to erode the physical, the Hroa, and making it so that a person was all soul or Fea. Literally, a visible soul! But, only visible to Sauron and those who bear the Rings invested with his power, the Ringwraiths. I can't locate the post now, but davem said recently that the Ringwraiths could be Hroa-less Fea. Perhaps the One Ring works in this way too? If Sauron invested it with some kind of power of osanwe, and likewise with the Nine Rings, then this would amke perfect sense. The bearer would be physically invisible, but entirely visible to Sauron; he would have lost his protective Hroa entirely and his Fea would be entirely visible. This could also explain the Light of Frodo. as his Hroa becomes eroded, his Light or Fea becomes more visible.

But what about Tom Bombadil? Does this mean he simply is not controllable in this way? Is he strong enough to resist what others, including the great and the good, cannot? Does he even have a Hroa to be eroded? And if not, then what plane does he exist upon?

Never mind coffee, I need something much stronger.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Never mind coffee, I need something much stronger.

Try these -- and don't say I didn't warn you, 'cause I am.

[drigel]

tom... pure fea
hmmm
Elves walking in both the seen and unseen world.... What else is in the unseen world other than spiritual presense would and elf see?

[Lyta_Underhill]

But what about Tom Bombadil? Does this mean he simply is not controllable in this way? Is he strong enough to resist what others, including the great and the good, cannot? Does he even have a Hroa to be eroded? And if not, then what plane does he exist upon?

Lalwendë, alas, I think I fell upon this same point in the "Magic in Middle Earth" thread when trying to describe the Ring's effects. I thought perhaps it was because Tom was, in a sense, Arda itself (not to say he is Eru, because I wouldn't say that--this isn't a true theory of what Bombadil is, but rather, how he functions in Middle Earth). But perhaps he is like Arda itself in that he is not affected by the temporal magic of the Ring. He, like the Earth itself, has great resistance to magic worked by individuals, even a great Maia like Sauron. Even Morgoth's attempts to wreck Middle Earth only brought out beauties undreamt of before---evil marring its own will again. Perhaps Tom is part of the larger world in this way. After all, we cannot put the Ring on all of Arda and make it disappear!

Oh, and Fordim, many thanks for the link to the coffee recipes! I would dearly enjoy Gondorian coffee but fear it would induce me to sing a silly song about the "Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon," or something equally embarrassing!

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. (edit): some added thoughts in response to Aiwendil's post:

This makes some sense. But is the "outwardness" of the characters' psyches then limited to this kind of "magic"? If we took away the perceptible light, would that make Frodo into the other kind of character?

I think what I was trying to say is that the landscape is a character, one that is validated by knowledge without a doubt of the other characters in Middle Earth that it does play a part and affect the movable characters that wander about in it. This, of course, would equate to a mythical reality, but it also would externalize many character aspects of those within its bounds in a similar measure with the observed externalization of the character of Middle Earth itself. Things that would seem metaphorical in this universe are valid concerns and show themselves in concrete ways that would not occur in the primary world. Thus, the light is an aspect of Frodo's soul, externalized in the secondary world, whereas it would not be visible in the primary world and we would rather think him crazy, as we can't see his motivation. His soul is left inside him, invisible. I hope this clarifies what I had tried rather feebly to say earlier! Thanks again and another round of Cheers!

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

[b]Oh, and Fordim, many thanks for the link to the coffee recipes! I would dearly enjoy Gondorian coffee but fear it would induce me to sing a silly song about the "Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon," or something equally embarrassing!

It's only embarassing if you disappear-- and then have to explain what happened to your soul.