Visible souls....

[Aiwendil]

Lyta_Underhill wrote:

Perhaps Frodo would not shine with a visible, perceptible light that is noticed by at least two other characters; perhaps his singular purpose would be cast in another light, the light of those who do not see the cohesive principle of Middle Earth. To a modern Earthling, perhaps Frodo is in the grip of a psychosis. Believes he's the only one who can save Middle Earth, eh? Well, its a big place and it will take care of itself, and anyone who has such thoughts must have a screw loose...etc. etc. Perhaps the externalization is in the structure and focus on the reality of the myth. One step beyond "magic realism."

This makes some sense. But is the "outwardness" of the characters' psyches then limited to this kind of "magic"? If we took away the perceptible light, would that make Frodo into the other kind of character? If so, then the outwardness would seem to be rather a superficial trait. What about other characters in LotR - I can think of no physical sign on the level of the light seen around Frodo in the case of Boromir, for instance.

As for the other part of your suggestion - that Frodo would be viewed by a modern as psychotic - it seems to me that this has less to do with the nature of mythical characters than with the nature of the mythical world. What I mean is that it is the nature of the world that Frodo is in that determines whether he is psychotic. If he is in a world like the real one, where it does not make sense that the great evil can be defeated by dropping a ring into a volcano, then his beliefs are delusional. But if he is in a world where exactly what he believes is true, then clearly he is not delusional. I don't think that this reflects any particular difference between one type of character and another.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just occured to me: isn't it interesting that the first effect of the Ring is to make one invisible? It suggests that the evil of the Ring is one that manifests by obscuring or eradicating the 'outwardness' of a character, or one that works contratry to this idea of wearing one's soul on the outside. The Ring denies that possibility by removing the outward appearance and locking (even trapping) the wearer in an eternal hell of internal existence. Frodo's experience of being invisible is terribly isolating (he is "naked" and even more visible to those other inwardly self-directed beings Sauron and the Nazgul).

The lasting effect of the Ring upon Gollum is that his outwardness has all but gone: his appearance is wasted and withered, he prefers to keep in the dark, he speaks to himself and thinks only of his own desires.

The great evil of the Ring is that it makes one's outwardness invisible to oneself, forcing him or her into living out his or her life only inwardly???

herm hoom baroom. . .more coffee is needed. . .

[mark12_30]

still reading, but in response to Fordie's comment above: Some define the "soul" as intellect, emotions, and will, as opposed to spirit being the life that is given by God (some separate these, some don't) (breath, wind, pneuma-- see mystic unity thread).

"Soul" has all sorts of connotations, some positive, some negative; there are those who contrast "soulishness" (fleshly, burdensome) with "spirituality" (good)... the soul is to be stilled and quieted (Psalm... something) or tamed or decreased.

I suppose if we are talking about "Visible Souls", and the body becomes invisible, then one must wonder whether the soul-- intellect, emotions, will -- is disappearing.

Bilbo escaped this fate.

The ringwraiths, I think, didn't.

Does Frodo?

Am I subdividing this too much? Lewis might object to the interpretation. (Wasn't he Episcopalian... don't think they divide it like the evangelicals do... )

:crosseyed:

Fordie, where's the coffee?

[drigel]

so many connotations and every one a tangent to run with.

suppose if we are talking about "Visible Souls", and the body becomes invisible, then one must wonder whether the soul is disappearing.

What would that say about old Tom? enigma indeed

When I think about the ring, I remember what our hobbit mortal ringbearers saw when they put the ring on. I would interpret that the only thing the ringwraith's had, enslaved as it was, was a spririt. The ring, forged by a fallen angel, was a physical link to the unseen world, one's spirit being a part of that world. It gets fuzzy for me at this point. Is it the strength of one's mind or one's spirit that determines the (partial?) command of the ring?

Venti triple coffe mocha yumm

[Lalwendë]

The old brain cells are seriously depleted now, and I thought I had what Fordim says all 'sewn up' so to speak but now Drigel has thrown a spanner in the works of my brain:

Originally Posted by Drigel

What would that say about old Tom? enigma indeed

Well, as soon as I read what Fordim says about the effects of the Ring, I thought that it must be working to erode the physical, the Hroa, and making it so that a person was all soul or Fea. Literally, a visible soul! But, only visible to Sauron and those who bear the Rings invested with his power, the Ringwraiths. I can't locate the post now, but davem said recently that the Ringwraiths could be Hroa-less Fea. Perhaps the One Ring works in this way too? If Sauron invested it with some kind of power of osanwe, and likewise with the Nine Rings, then this would amke perfect sense. The bearer would be physically invisible, but entirely visible to Sauron; he would have lost his protective Hroa entirely and his Fea would be entirely visible. This could also explain the Light of Frodo. as his Hroa becomes eroded, his Light or Fea becomes more visible.

But what about Tom Bombadil? Does this mean he simply is not controllable in this way? Is he strong enough to resist what others, including the great and the good, cannot? Does he even have a Hroa to be eroded? And if not, then what plane does he exist upon?

Never mind coffee, I need something much stronger.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Never mind coffee, I need something much stronger.

Try these -- and don't say I didn't warn you, 'cause I am.

[drigel]

tom... pure fea
hmmm
Elves walking in both the seen and unseen world.... What else is in the unseen world other than spiritual presense would and elf see?

[Lyta_Underhill]

But what about Tom Bombadil? Does this mean he simply is not controllable in this way? Is he strong enough to resist what others, including the great and the good, cannot? Does he even have a Hroa to be eroded? And if not, then what plane does he exist upon?

Lalwendë, alas, I think I fell upon this same point in the "Magic in Middle Earth" thread when trying to describe the Ring's effects. I thought perhaps it was because Tom was, in a sense, Arda itself (not to say he is Eru, because I wouldn't say that--this isn't a true theory of what Bombadil is, but rather, how he functions in Middle Earth). But perhaps he is like Arda itself in that he is not affected by the temporal magic of the Ring. He, like the Earth itself, has great resistance to magic worked by individuals, even a great Maia like Sauron. Even Morgoth's attempts to wreck Middle Earth only brought out beauties undreamt of before---evil marring its own will again. Perhaps Tom is part of the larger world in this way. After all, we cannot put the Ring on all of Arda and make it disappear!

Oh, and Fordim, many thanks for the link to the coffee recipes! I would dearly enjoy Gondorian coffee but fear it would induce me to sing a silly song about the "Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon," or something equally embarrassing!

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. (edit): some added thoughts in response to Aiwendil's post:

This makes some sense. But is the "outwardness" of the characters' psyches then limited to this kind of "magic"? If we took away the perceptible light, would that make Frodo into the other kind of character?

I think what I was trying to say is that the landscape is a character, one that is validated by knowledge without a doubt of the other characters in Middle Earth that it does play a part and affect the movable characters that wander about in it. This, of course, would equate to a mythical reality, but it also would externalize many character aspects of those within its bounds in a similar measure with the observed externalization of the character of Middle Earth itself. Things that would seem metaphorical in this universe are valid concerns and show themselves in concrete ways that would not occur in the primary world. Thus, the light is an aspect of Frodo's soul, externalized in the secondary world, whereas it would not be visible in the primary world and we would rather think him crazy, as we can't see his motivation. His soul is left inside him, invisible. I hope this clarifies what I had tried rather feebly to say earlier! Thanks again and another round of Cheers!

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

[b]Oh, and Fordim, many thanks for the link to the coffee recipes! I would dearly enjoy Gondorian coffee but fear it would induce me to sing a silly song about the "Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon," or something equally embarrassing!

It's only embarassing if you disappear-- and then have to explain what happened to your soul.

[littlemanpoet]

Can anyone present a satisfactory account of what in practice, in literary terms, it means for a character's sould to be visible? - Aiwendil

Thanks, Lyta, for your example of Frodo's light, which presented a category I had not accounted for in my little mock-up of a definition - or at least approach to one. Anyway.....

Indicators of a Visible Soul

1. A minimum of internal psychological processing by the character(s), whether in terms of thoughts, feelings, or dreams.

2. Character(s) appear as real, three-dimensional beings, almost always expressed through speech and behavior alone.

3. Internal attributes are evoked mythically according to the laws that govern the mythic setting: e.g.:

• dreams foretell real events
• White light indicates holiness, purity
• Green and yellow light indicates decay & corruption
• Red light indicates evil

In the above, I'm trying to account for various aspects of LotR, but also for applicability to other works.

Just a note on two- versus three- dimensionality: Those who assert that "visible soul" characterization is two-dimensional, are confusing internality with evocation of reality. When we see other people in the primary world but can't read their minds, we don't accuse them of being two-dimensional. We reserve such a pejorative for shallowness of character. Further, "visible soul" characterization, done well, is not the same as shallow characterization. It's not hard to perceive the difference between a real visible character from a cardboard cut-out.

[drigel]

lmp good synopsis
This characteristic is throughout LOTR, but it's description is very subtle. Mabye thats truly the only way for us mortals to discern it: in the corner of your eye, a quick, minute moment in time where one reaches a certain cognizance of the environment one is part of, and the souls that he shares it with.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

But perhaps he is like Arda itself in that he is not affected by the temporal magic of the Ring. He, like the Earth itself, has great resistance to magic worked by individuals, even a great Maia like Sauron.

Does this mean that Tom is quite literally a part of the very fabric of Arda? If so it might tie in with my old ideas of him as relating to a figure such as The Green Man or the Horned God. But now my ideas have been turned all upside down since I read Osanwe-kenta, and I feel there must be something in the fact that The One Ring does not have any effect upon him.

If he is a Hroa-less Fea (phrase used with compliments to davem ) then how did the Hobbits see him? Was this the nature of the magic of the Old Forest? If it did indeed enable the Hobbits to 'see' that which is not normally seen then I like that chapter even more than ever!

But it's still all hurting my head and I can't quite decide...

Originally Posted by drigel

Mabye thats truly the only way for us mortals to discern it: in the corner of your eye, a quick, minute moment in time where one reaches a certain cognizance of the environment one is part of, and the souls that he shares it with.

This brings to mind the Laws and Customs section of Morgoth's Ring - Vol. 10 (I think) of HoME. In this it talks of what happens when an Elf's Hroa eventually burns away leaving them as a houseless Fea, wandering the earth. These would be visible to other Elves, and possibly to mortals, and there is a particularly beautiful passage in there relating to this.

[littlemanpoet]

If he is a Hroa-less Fea (phrase used with compliments to davem ) then how did the Hobbits see him? Was this the nature of the magic of the Old Forest? If it did indeed enable the Hobbits to 'see' that which is not normally seen then I like that chapter even more than ever! - Lalwendë

This particular question reminds me of the medieval scholars in earnest discussion regarding how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

Maybe I'm revealing my ignorance of this now famous osanwe document, but it seems to me that the best reading of any narrative written by Tolkien (or any storyteller for that matter) is to take it the way he wrote it rather than to speculate things that are not there. Hence, since the hobbits could see Tom Bombadil, he could not have been a hroa-less fea.

Does this mean that Tom is quite literally a part of the very fabric of Arda? If so it might tie in with my old ideas of him as relating to a figure such as The Green Man or the Horned God. - Lalwendë

Now, this seems much more likely to me. It's of a piece with how Tolkien wrote Tom and Goldberry, don't you think? I like your "old ideas" just fine.

[davem]

Originally Posted by LmP

This particular question reminds me of the medieval scholars in earnest discussion regarding how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

I wonder how relevant this aside may be. That discussion, as I understand it, related to whether Angels had any physical presence, & if so, how much. Clearly, if they were purely spiritual beings, with no physical nature (in Tolkienesque terms if they were purely 'fea' without a 'hroa'), then an infinite number of them could dance on the head of any physical object - even a pin head. If they had a physical presence then there would be a limit on the number who could occupy such a space.

This may be relevant to the discussion of what happens to Elves if/when their fea does burn away their hroa. Would they have any presence in the physical world? If they were visible at all in that state then we would be dealing with literally visible souls. How many hroa-less Elves could dance on the head of a pin?

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Does this mean that Tom is quite literally a part of the very fabric of Arda? If so it might tie in with my old ideas of him as relating to a figure such as The Green Man or the Horned God. - Lalwendë

I wonder, in the light of what we know about both the Moon & the Sun having 'indwelling' spirits - Tillion & Arien - whether Tom is the 'indwelling' spirit of Arda. Of course, we are told that Tilion' & Arien's role is to steer those 'vessels', but is there more to it. I remember reading that when Blake looked at the sun he 'saw' a choir of Angels singing 'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty!'. Did Tolkien have something similar in mind with Tilion & Arien? And if so, would that explain Tom? Is he the spirit that 'steers' the world. Of course, if Tom had always been then for most of his existence he wouldn't have had anything to steer as Arda was flat & fixed in place. But if there is more to the roles od Tilion & Arien, if they have another role, being the 'spirits' of moon & sun, then its possible that Tom played the same part in relation to Arda. He would be equivalent to the 'planetary Angel' of Qabalistic tradition.

Which would make him the 'visible soul' of Arda I suppose, his words would be the words of Arda itself. He has seen the first stars, he has existed as long as Arda has existed because he is Arda. This would at least explain the problem of both him & Treebeard being referred to as 'eldest'. Treebeard is the oldest living being in Middle earth, Tom is Middle earth. The Ring has no effect on him as it is, materially, made up of the matter of Arda, of the body of Tom himself.....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

He has seen the first stars, he has existed as long as Arda has existed because he is Arda. This would at least explain the problem of both him & Treebeard being referred to as 'eldest'. Treebeard is the oldest living being in Middle earth, Tom is Middle earth. The Ring has no effect on him as it is, materially, made up of the matter of Arda, of the body of Tom himself.....

So Tom could be a 'guardian spirit' of Arda itself, sent to live in the land and guide it? This brings to mind the traditions of 'elements'. In modern astrology we think in terms of fire, earth, air and water. Though I have heard of slightly differing groupings of elements comprising of earth, air, water and wood (though I can't think right now what this system relates to). If Tolkien was working with traditional elements, then there could be some interesting correspondences here. Tom could be earth, Treebeard could represent wood, and Goldberry could represent water. All three of these could indeed be considered as guardian spirits in some way, unaffected by matters of Hroa and Fea.

I like this idea as it isn't so far from my older ideas, and it is reconcilable with the ideas in the Osanwe-kenta too.